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Post by BriscoMomma on Jul 2, 2004 16:07:30 GMT -5
So why are horses scratched? When I watch TVG, I see alot of scratched horses and it makes me curious. I know that some lameness stuff/sickness appears out of nowhere sometimes, so I'm sure some of it is for that reason. Are there other reasons that horses are scratched? Is there a penalty for scratching? Various reasons - illness/lameness, rider problems, no current coggins, no current work, foal papers not in the office on time, too late to the paddock, licensing issues, slop, turf races taken off turf, entering in another race, or you just plain don't like your post position, etc., etc., literally hundreds of possible reasons. Sometimes a penalty, sometimes not. Depends on the reason and when. |
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Post by Katie Jo on Jul 2, 2004 16:59:58 GMT -5
Track's too hard, too soft, too deep, the weather isn't just right for the rider, blah blah blah.. basically always some dumb thing.  |
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Post by RacetrackRejects on Jul 2, 2004 17:06:48 GMT -5
Ok, I just thought maybe they would have really strict penalties for scratching for something other than a vet's note about lameness/sickness. This racing thing is looking better than showing. No $350 entry/stabling/fees and if you don't compete or they don't have the event, they don't keep your money.
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Post by Einstein on Jul 2, 2004 17:39:05 GMT -5
A published work is one where the clocker at the track in the mornings records the time. That's all, nothing fancy or unusual, no certain time required, etc. Something for the bettors to go on. OK my turn for a question, if the above is correct, then why must you have a published work to get into a race? |
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Post by Christina on Jul 2, 2004 17:43:27 GMT -5
I am learning a lot here. Very neat.
Funny about the scraps of paper you found RR - I found an old notebook I had saved from when I was a little girl...and I cant believe how much showjumping I watched. I TRACKED those riders and horses, starring my favorites. Funny.
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Post by Katie Jo on Jul 2, 2004 18:04:26 GMT -5
RR- They do penalize you. If the vet scratches you, you are on the vet's list and therefore sidelined for a certain period of time. (different in every jurisdiction) If you scratch for another reason generally you have to pay a fee. The stewards tell you how much and you pay, more or less. So it isn't true that they don't get your money- they do. There's almost always a fine. But would you rather pay a fine or have your horse get hurt? That's usually the way we look at it.
It's very expensive to train a racehorse, between feed, shoeing every 3-4 weeks and shavings/hay at the track are SUPER expensive. Exercise riders are $10/day, and pony riders for race time are $20 where I am.
Michelle- You have to have a published work because they don't have any way to prove that you actually have a fit horse otherwise. It would be a liability for the race track to let a horse into a race that hasn't actually breezed in 4 or 5 months. That horse could break down (obviously) and injure someone else. So yes, it is very informal, but it is important. You could technically use another horse for the 'works', but what really is the point. You need to breeze a horse anyways to get it ready to race, so why not just call the clocker and get an official time for it. But I think the usual reasoning for them is the liability it puts on the track should something happen. At least if there are one or more published works, technically the horse 'should' be ready to race. Not sure if that makes any sense.
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Post by BriscoMomma on Jul 2, 2004 18:49:45 GMT -5
OK my turn for a question, if the above is correct, then why must you have a published work to get into a race? Mostly so the bettors have something to go on since the horse hasn't raced in x amount of time, and to show that the horse can run. You don't have to work in any distance, speed, etc., the trainer decides to either breeze, work them handily, etc. The only time a specific speed of work is required can be if you are working off a vets list, and the minimum time really isn't all that fast. They can't tell you otherwise how fast or hard to work your horse. That's the trainer's decision. And Katie, it mostly depends on when you scratch & why you scratch if you are fined. If you fail to have the foal papers on file in time, yes, you'll probably pay a fine (maybe $100 around here). If your horse flips in the gate, gets loose, colics that morning, etc., no you don't necessarily have to pay a fine. It all depends on why, when and what the stewards decide. |
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Post by Katie Jo on Jul 2, 2004 19:10:25 GMT -5
BM- Yeah, I wasn't really talkinga bout freak accidents though, but up here, yeah if your horse throws the rider and runs around the track once or twice, I don't know if they fine you, I would imagine they don't. And a colic in the morning, that's legitimate. I guess for everyone asking, it's all up to the stewards. If they deem that it is a 'freak' thing, then you won't be fined. And I don't really mean a 'freak' thing per se, I basically mean if its a legitimate unforeseen thing, that most logical people wouldn't penalize for, then odds are there won't be penalties.
Oh, on the workout thing, its even more important for maidens, because then bettors can see what kind of speed they seem to have, since they may have only raced once or twice, if at all.
But up here at Suffolk, the track vet is very concerned that the older horses have published works if they've had any time off at all. Even a month or so- because we have so many lameness issues. It's really sad, Suffolk has so many cripples. The winner of what would have been Varda's race was dead lame.
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Post by Christina on Jul 2, 2004 20:33:47 GMT -5
Okay...so did you scratch Varda from the race? Why did you do it - if you did? Or was she removed? Did you have to pay a fine?
Exactly HOW much money does a horse have to win to even break even? IF you have to pay $10 a day for an excercise rider...plus the basic living expenses...that has to be a ton of money. Race fees...etc etc etc. Are the horses that are winning paying for the horses that arent?
Grace raced 14 times in one year. Knowing nothing about racing, that seems like a lot to me.
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Post by RacetrackRejects on Jul 2, 2004 22:13:42 GMT -5
C- I believe the answer is on the front page. Yes, Varda was scratched, but I'll have to go back and read why because I already forgot.
KJ- Well for show horses you have to pay for board, training, lessons, showing, farrier, supplements, food/etc too, so I'm sure it evens out. Especially if you are at a show barn.
I'm glad that there is some kind of fine system for scratching though. I wouldn't want you guys getting off too easily..lol.
Do they ever call off a race? For reasons other than lack of entries?
Let's see, what else have I always wondered about....
Does anyone know what is going on with the jockey in California? I forget the name....Paul V-something? They said he was suspended because part of his "agreement" was that he had to "supply a hair follicle sample" and that "he was unable to do so" so he is suspended. Then the TVG guys said something to audience like- This guy wasn't refusing to supply the sample, but was unable, and to think about what hair style alot of guys have right now, but everywhere. So basically it seemed they were saying he shaved his entire body so he couldn't give a sample, but why was he supposed to give a sample in the first place? Is everyone confused now?
Also, am I the only one that thinks QHs look ridiculous racing? Their legs just move way too fast with those big ole bodies. TBs look so elegant running. **I'm not bashing QHs. I like QHs, but they still look funny racing.**
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Post by Lisann on Jul 2, 2004 23:01:06 GMT -5
I read on thoroughbredtimes.com that P-Val had shaved his head, underarms, and pubic area. Those are apparently the only areas they can take hair samples from for drug testing. For all the man's religious talk, this seems awfully suspicious to me.
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Post by Katie Jo on Jul 3, 2004 1:22:27 GMT -5
Christina- No offense to everyone on here, but the reasons for Varda being scratched are not really anything I need to tell anyone. It's kind of personal and not necessarily anything that needs to be disclosed due to the fact it involves my trainer, me, my horse, the jockey, etc..
RR- Since I show horses as well, I would say that the two are about even expense wise, but racehorses are somewhat more expensive.
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Post by jenarby on Jul 3, 2004 6:22:19 GMT -5
Okay...so did you scratch Varda from the race? Why did you do it - if you did? Or was she removed? Did you have to pay a fine? Exactly HOW much money does a horse have to win to even break even? IF you have to pay $10 a day for an excercise rider...plus the basic living expenses...that has to be a ton of money. Race fees...etc etc etc. Are the horses that are winning paying for the horses that arent? Grace raced 14 times in one year. Knowing nothing about racing, that seems like a lot to me. There are ears everywhere when it comes to racing. Someone who knows someone who knows someone else. So MOST peple will not disclose why a horse was scratched or how they train because keeping what you do secret can sometimes mean you have the upperhand on your opponents. Sometimes horses are scratched because they are sore and the jockey refuses to ride, or the state vet scratches them because of something they notice. Sometimes you have one that flips in the gate, breaks through it and wont stand or refuses to go in. If after several times they won't go in, they will be scratched and put on the starter's list. Then they have to come to the gate in the morning and stand in it until the proper people are satisfied that it was long enough. We were scratched the first time we tried to run Nantucketeer because the race was on the turf and we had the wrong shoes on him behind. Resulting in a scratch and a fine. If you scratch by a certain time (here it's the day before) you will not be fined. Breaking even....well, average training around here is $35 a day, plus vet, plus farrier, plus pony....and any extras. So say you claimed a horse for $5k, and have it in training for one months before it races. You have $5000 plus tax invested in the horse, plus $1050 in training, plus probably $85 for shoes, Plus let's say$250 for the vet, plus $250 for any other extras up until raceday. You reenter to run for $5k claimers.....to break even you need to poclet about 7k. The purse is around $12k I think, if you win you get 60%. So that's around 7500, minus 10% for the jockey, minus whatever % the trainer gets, minus taxes. So I'd say you'd have to win 2 races for what you claimed the horse for to make any money. 14 races in a year is pretty normal for a horse around here.....maybe slightly high. We claimed one that had 18 in one year and she was tired. I would say buying a horse that stayed sound and clean racing once a month (or less) is a good thing. |
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Post by BriscoMomma on Jul 3, 2004 6:53:32 GMT -5
There are ears everywhere when it comes to racing. Someone who knows someone who knows someone else. So MOST peple will not disclose why a horse was scratched or how they train because keeping what you do secret can sometimes mean you have the upperhand on your opponents. I agree 1000%. Actually, I kinda giggled a little when I saw that you wrote this (not in a bad way!) because I think *you* tell a LOT on the forum. Although I'm sure not everything. ;D Just as an example, I remember one time (long ago, horse is now retired) someone claimed a rather nice, very classy older horse from us for $10k. He always wore just a d-bit with a copper roller & a tongue tie. For whatever reason, the new trainer wanted him in a figure eight. This horse HATED having "stuff" wrapped all over his face, or anything on too tight. He'd fight it. This classy old horse with 60+ starts under his belt, earnings over $300,000 started refusing to break from the gate. He was about to be ruled off. The new trainer only got him out of the gate one time, I think(?). We all knew why. But we weren't talking. ;D Old owner bought him back for about $3k, we put him back in his old tack and viola. ;D ;D ;D Now, the last thing I'd do would be to come online anywhere, or worse yet to spread "gossip", mention it to anyone at the track. ;D Also wanted to mention that while claiming is part of the "game" (and acting out in a poor manner because someone claimed your horse is considered very bad sportsmanship), one of The unwritten rules of claiming is that you never claim a horse out of the same barn that you are in. It is considered giving you an advantage of knowing what is going on, and to do so is a fightin' action. If you absolutely must, it is considered courtesy to let the other trainer know ahead of time so that they have the opportunity to scratch the horse. To do otherwise is considered a knock down drag out. Breaking even really depends on if you raised the horse, claimed it (for how much) and most especially where you are running. For example, while it's cheaper here than Jen's example of a day rate (averages $25 day rate here, which is ridiculously low, most mid-to-high level tracks run more like $50-$80/day, can go up to $100/day if you're talking D. Wayne, etc., at Churchill or something), it's harder to break even. Don't forget your vet & farrier (and jockey) costs are all over & above the day rates. And while Jen's $4k claimers run for a pot of something insane like $11,000, our $4k claimers run for a pot of $4200, $2520 to the winner. And you must run the horse for a tag over what you claimed it for (here) for the first 30 days. So then to go out & win 2 in a row and break even right away is a very rare thing. Raising one from a baby is even crazier to try to break even. Little Daisy, at not quite 4 months old yet, is already over $6k in the red with stud feeds, breeding costs, foaling & care. Two more years at least before she'll even make her first start (more likely sometime in the spring of 2007), so at least another $2500-$3000 in just feeding her, paying someone to take care of her even though she's at home (that would be me ;D ) 2 months off gettting broke will probably run another $1k, in training at the track for say 3 months before her first start will run another $2500. So she'll set foot in her first post parade in the red about $15k, not including vet & farrier costs, and will be running for a check to the winner of about $5k (they almost NEVER win first time out, lucky to get a check). Mind you, she belongs to her trainer who has his own farm, so costs are a little less. Keep in mind as well, this is the bottom of the racing ranks we are talking here. But of course, Daisy is going to win the '07 Kentucky Derby, so everything will be just fine here. ;D Now, if she were running at an upper level track, or even based at a Chicago mid-level track, take the costs from age 2 & up and multiply them times about 3. But you can bump up the winner's share of the purse some too. A horse standing in a stall at a mid-to-lower level track that isn't making any money is costing the owner about $1400 a month. Adds a little more meaning to "MUST GO ASAP" in the ads you see for horses at the track that are for sale because they are too slow. |
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Post by Christi on Jul 3, 2004 7:12:07 GMT -5
There are ears everywhere when it comes to racing. Someone who knows someone who knows someone else. So MOST peple will not disclose why a horse was scratched or how they train because keeping what you do secret can sometimes mean you have the upperhand on your opponents. Good point, Jen. Confidentiality would seem like an obvious point to me. I think you, Katie Jo, and BM have been very helpful in explaining the racing details, but we have to remember that you are speaking generally for us without having to divulge details about a specific racing stable. Thanks to you guys for the info so far, and I apologize if we have stepped on anybody's toes by asking for too much personal information. Christi |
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