nose bleeding: urgent

[racehorsegal]

So i have a new horse. he is a spotted saddle horse. Ive been working on getting him in shape for about 2 months, he sweets alot ( neck and shoulder area). he has not been used to frequent exercise before i got him..

Last night while at a drill practice with him for the first time (about an hour or so), i could tell his body wasn't in shape yet. because his front shoulders and neck were getting sweaty.

So i slowed him down to cool him back off, and a couple minutes later he coughed several times. I noticed his nostril was bleeding a few minutes later.

It was a steady stream not bad enough that it was dripping, but none the less he was bleeding. it stopped about 10 minutes later.

I talked to my vet and she said Monday she will check him out that this can be normal for high spirited horses and in racehorses as well.

I read a few articles that said its nothing very serious and the medication to prevent future nose bleeds does not always help .

Can any one give me a Little info if you have dealt with this or have heard of this. I'm using him for drill team that requires alot of him at times and of course i don't want to further damage his lungs, any info would be great.

[Big Tee©]

Sounds like EIPH to me - excercise induced pulmonary haemorrage and damned straight it is urgent!!!

Why on EARTH did you work an unfit horse that hard? You should have had enough sense to QUIT with him when he started puffing and blowing, much less work him until he is wringing wet and blowing so hard he is coughing. When you slowed him down when you 'noticed' he was sweaty is when you should have quit, well, no you SHOULD have quit when he started getting damp and was blowing, probably when he started blowing as that likely came first.

Jeez, 10 MINUTES of a steady stream of blood IS SERIOUS bleeding, and your vet ain't got a CLUE!!!! That horse needs scoped and given anti-bleed drugs and probably needs an owner with common sense and one that expects less than drill routines without getting the horse FIT FIRST!!!! Before you do ANY KIND OF INTENSE WORK with a horse, you HAVE to get it legged up and get some air into it BEFORE you start the work, not after the fact. Quite frankly, I do NOT believe you are capable of handling a horse with this condition, and yes I have dealt with, and successfully raced bleeders.

You AND your halfbaked vet had better do some more research into EIPH and BY either the acronym or the proper term which I used previous - it is NOT 'normal' by a long shot, and while it can be managed and the animal useful, I do not think you are capable of managing the problem.

'nuff said

[Amy]

I have to say, my first reaction was, "You worked a horse for an hour and half that you admitted sweats alot and is not in good shape or used to frequent excersize?!" That's an awfully long time to ride a horse, even lightly that isn't in steady work. That's like asking someone to go out and run a 10K that's only jogs around the block a couple of times a week.

[gr8g8s]

I am APPALLED that you would take a horse that you KNOW is not in condition and work him for an hour and a half! Have you never been taught anything about how to build up a horse's endurance and muscle? That horse needs to be thoroughly checked by a QUALIFIED vet, put on meds and then VERY SLOWLY worked up to that length of time and it's going to take MONTHS!! What you did is equivalent to ABUSE!

[diane]

I totally agree with everyone.

[MapleShade]

Ok so racehorsegirl- I really think perhaps you should ask yourself this question everyday...."If I were my horse how would I want to be treated?". If I showed up at your place and treated you like you just treated this horse you'd probably call the cops and have me put in jail.
Or at the very least you'd bitch slap me and cuss me out. A horse is a precious thing. They give to you and trust you. They are prey animals and you are their leader. They lend you their backs and their legs. They place their mind, body and heart in your hands. I believe this is a very precious gift. It is YOUR responsibility to match this gift with respect, humility, respect, generosity and respect. I hope and pray that you do not take advantage of your horses generosity again!
In the meanwhile, please get the horse some competent vet care asap.

[Amy]

Apr 10, 2009 17:07:54 GMT -5 racehorsegal said:

so i have a new horse he is a spotted saddle horse. ive been working on getting him in shape he sweets alot.
and he is not used to frequent exercise. last night while at a drill practice with him for about an hour and a half, i could tell his body wasn't in great shape because his front shoulders and neck were really sweaty. so i slowed him down to cool him back off, and a couple minutes latter he coughed like 5 times and then i noticed his nostril was bleeding .

Here is where I got my information from, you mention that you've been working on getting in shape, however, you also mention you notice he sweats alot. That told me (whether correctly or incorrectly) that he's still not in shape. You then mention he's not used to frequent excersize, which led me to believe he's only being worked a couple of days a week, at most (again, perhaps correctly or not). You immediately follow that sentence with "while at drill practice for an hour and half"...that's a long time to ride a horse that's not in shape. And I believe I followed that up with, even at a walk/trot...it's a LONG time to be on a horse that isn't in shape. And you mentioned you slowed him to a walk, but that is after you've already presented us with drill practice being AN HOUR AND A HALF, so yes, it sounded like you'd ridden him for an hour and half! Then later in your post, you mention, "I'm using him for drill team that requires alot of him at times and of course i don't want to further damage his lungs" so excuse me for assuming that you were working him hard. No, I'm not at all familiar with drill, I only went on what you presented. There may have been trainers there but I personally have come across plenty of trainers that had no business being trainers, so I don't always consider that a safe assumption when not presented with the information.

As far cussing you out, I don't believe anyone did. Yes, I believe we came across as strong and harsh, but that's because we have the horse's best interest at heart. The worst thing I think anyone called you was ignorant...that you didn't have enough knowledge or sense to condition your horse properly (again just going on what you presented). Mapleshade said that you would want to "bitch slap and cuss HER out" if she has mistreated you. Yes, that probably meant that's what she'd like to do in this case...but she didn't, she followed it a statement that we are our our animals stewards and that we owe them best of care and conditions.

Perhaps you can research some of the information BigTee provided before your vet visit. I hope she's able to find out what it is and provide you some manageable solutions.

BTW, in your title it reads "URGENT"...which again, leads the reader to think it was more serious than you then present it to be...whether you discount that in your post with your vet's over the phone assessment or not. Perhaps the urgent was because you'd like information before Monday, if so, try just presenting it that way...otherwise, we're likely to assume it's URGENT as in emergency, call an ambulance/911-type of urgent.

[Big Tee©]

I hate to burst your bubble about the horse being ready. well, when they start blowing after a few minutes of what you describe as walk-trot, they are NOT ready for strenuous work, not by a long shot. Furthermore, you assume no one here but you knows anything about drill teams - that is tough work for a horse, and it is an undertaking I would never do without having put between three and five HUNDRED legging up miles on; drill is endurance and your horse should be able to long trot for several MILES before you try an hour and a half of practice. This is no different than Joe Trainer asking WHY Superfast bowed/dropped a suspensory/bled/otherwise broke down after a training trip in 2:30 or a fast breeze when he had been jogging or galloping for a month, when Superfast should have been conditioned for 3 months before going a much slower work.

As to not getting advice, read for comprehension.......I DID tell you to look up EIPH - Exercise Induced Pulmonary Haemorrage as there is a wealth of information on it at many sites. There are herbal 'cures' that do work and Lasix helps a lot. Proper care can reduce bleeding to a few drops that show up sporadically. What you described as a stream for 10 minutes is roughly a quarter or less of what he bled inside and swallowed or aspirated.

For what it's worth, there are more than a few of us radicals kicking around that feel bleeding in many cases can be prevented by proper conditioning before asking for hard works, regardless of discipline. When one conditions a horse properly, one conditions the whole horse, not just its muscles or legs, the regime conditions lungs, heart and circulatory system as well. Shorting a horse on slow distance work is asking for trouble. Even when I was chasing cans, I conditioned my barrel horses the same way I condition a race horse, lots of slow miles before adding speed. I have never MADE a bleeder, but have ended up with some over the years. Fed them bucca leaves and smoked them with Asthmadore which no longer exists, but you CAN still get bucca leaves.

Please, in the future, post your questions with clarity and in proper sentences as one's eyes tend to slide over a long string of text that is unbroken by anything - it becomes an illegible, indecipherable mess. As Amy said, you prefaced your largely unintelligible post with the word urgent, then casually tossed urgent aside and it was treated as urgent. Regardless of what your vet said, well, 10 minutes of nasal bleed IS urgent, and shouldnt be passed off if you don't know anything about the condition.

[Einstein]

Yes, you have taken some real heat on this thread. Yes you are not clear in your original post. I also did not read your last post pre-edit. I have been informed by people who did read it that it was full of things like calling people who have posted here beeotches and a$$holes. I know you have been PM'd about the appropriateness of such language on these forums. We are an open and public forum, think of it as being at Disney World, it's a PG place.

I think Exracers is a WONDERFUL place for support and advice. Please consider carefully the warning you got in a the PM as well as this one. Exracers is NOT a forum to curse. Please just watch your language and if you don't want people to have to make leaps of logic to answer your posts, just try to be as clear as possible, with content, spelling, and even just writing clearly what you are asking for help with. That will really help with any confusion other members and those reading your thread will have, and lessen the jump to conclusions you are upset about.

[Deb]

Well said Einstein. I fully am in agreement with you.

[Goalie]

Okay enough already Racehorsegal. You write one thing and then you have the audacity to get upset with our members when they reply to your "Urgent" thread. If you go back and reread the replies you have received you will see that no one is p"picking" on you. they gave you answers for what you had asked.

yes you have been given a warning in a PM. Now I am giving you a warning on the public part. Here at exracers it has been decided that the 3 warnings and you are out of here still applies. this is warning Number 1.

I do not want you to be confused at all about this part.

This is our forum and you either play by our rules or you are free to leave.

[racehorsegal]

ok , So thank you for being honest and telling me off in a nicer way, God knows i would never hurt one of my horses .

So as stupidity has found it, i did unintentionally cause him harm.
I never called anyone b--ches. I just said yall were inconsiderate a-- h----, because you guys were very harsh on me. and I'm sorry!
Again my fualt for not telling more detail, but all in all, and a nights sleep. no matter how i try to suger coat it. I still over worked him but i did not hear blowing or him out of breath, i was watching, but i missed it.

We have worked longer at home and this did not happen. I just didnt know what was happening and i felt it was urgent. call me an idiot if it makes you feel better.

Put your self in my shoes read the response and see how bad you feel the next day.

I do agree with what you said about the horse trainners, after all was done she insisted he'd be fine and i was over reacting . I had one of those feeling and that he might be in trouble so I went to the first place i knew id get good answers. and i did get them just not the way i wanted them, and not at first after i explained more i got the answers.

I feel for any one who crosses you guys you r a tough bunch, my god..lol

But seriously:

Thank you for the answers minus the hashness.
Some times the truth hurts. in this case more for my new guy than me.

But Please be Informed he will not return to drill for some time and I spoke with another vet and he said not to do anything with him before he checks him . So hopefully i will get some good news on monday.
There will be some question raised to my so called instuctors as well!

As for my self if asked i will leave this sight, but it would not be a good thing as i enjoy being here.

There where several comments made to me that were not nice at all and i toke them to heart. In the future if able to stay i will explain things a little better.

[Amy]

Apr 12, 2009 9:45:21 GMT -5 racehorsegal said:

In the future if able to stay i will explain things a little better.

I don't think Goalie asked you to leave. She said she was giving you a warning and that if you stay, you need to play by the rules...or you can leave. Perhaps I shouldn't speak for her, but I don't think that means you have to leave now.

I understand you were asking for help. I'm sorry you felt the critisism was harsh and that you felt picked on. That certainly was not my intent. In my second reply, I was just trying to help you understand where the conclusions were coming from that you thought we were jumping to. I think as a whole, the group of horsepeople that make up this site are a passionate bunch...it's how we're able to jump so quickly to the rescue of horses in need. Sometimes, that price might come across as a few harsh posts when it seems the well-fare of a horse was in question (whether intentionally or not). But it sounds like you've done some reflecting, are going to do some additional research and get some answers from a qualified professional. All steps in the right direction!

I hope you'll choose to stick and around continue to learn...Lord knows I've got a long way to go!

[diane]

since I started with thoroughbred race horses ( and also running quarter horses) way back in 1970 , I have always said .. you can learn some thing new about race horses every day.. ask 10 different horsemen about a problem and you will get 10 different answers and all might be correct.. we never stop learning new things about the horses we love...and I believe that everyone who answered your urgent thread were more worried about the horse than trying to blast you ..one thing I learned , if a horse bleeds tie his head up . and let him rest.. dont 'hang' his head way up.. just a natural position but with him not able to put his head down more than half way to the ground. I have seen them choke, cough and blow blood all over when their heads are down... I hope you decide to stay. this place is awesome

[racehorsegal]

Thank you , for posting me. I didnt think anyone carred enough to respond again and you where the only one. I did what was asked and fixed everything that I was ask to im my last post. I said I was sorry for the response I gave after recieving all the nasty post.

I just feel like everyone jumped on me all at once. The private post where REALLY bad too.
You said that : advice: sometimes, comes across as a FEW harsh post there are 11 harsh post not to mention the private ones too.

On the home page it said that anyone that intends to harm ,discredit, embarress or harass would not be tollerated and it shocked me coming from moderaters.
It may have been my fault that i didnt explain things very well but the response was a little much.

I have only been here for a very short time. And have enjoyed the posting. But ive been attacked more than just this time. The time before was when i was told i needed to learn how to write and do better job in grammer. And thats saying it nicely, the subject came up again. so.... I' m not the best speller and never was good in grammer. but there is a nice way to let someone know they need to do a better job. I Think ive had my fair share of all of this.

But i will from time to time read the post. THERE ARE SOME REALLY NICE PEOPLE IN HERE!

As for me posting after this probley not . I was looking for help and got way more than i bargained for.

Good luck to all the first time horse owners! and horse lovers alike.

And thanks again AMY for your compassion!!!!