Rocky

[rockman]

I want to introduce my OTTB and ask for quite a bit of advice please! I know I have probably made a lot of mistakes, so please highlight them to me so I can learn from them but not too harsh! Sorry if this is really long to read but I just want to give the overall picture of what we have done this past year so that I know where to go next.

Rocky is a dark bay, 16.3hh, gelding. I bought Rocky last year on 27th November 2012 he was 13 on 27th May 2013. He raced until he was 10 and then hunted for 2 years. When I got him he had been sent to a horrible end and had 3/4 weeks left before being put down, because he was no longer needed. Needless to say I jumped in without properly thinking. I have been riding horses for 16 years and know all about the problems that an OTTB will present.

When I got him he was extremely nervous, I was unable to brush his face and when brushing his body he flinched every stroke. I left him in his stable for a week just getting to know him and trying to let him settle down. When I rode him he was perfect it was like he was bombproof, for the first week at least! After this week of riding he decided to show his true colours, he did not want to go anywhere on his own. He didn't want to go for a ride on his own and he didn't want to be out of sight of the other horses, I know this is typical OTTB behaviour as they are not used to being on their own at any point so I wasn't surprised. I tried to persevere through the behaviour and he just got worse. I then moved yards in April 2013, this seemed to settle him a lot as the yard is much more structured and everything is done at set times. I have now got Rocky a lot more settled and can stroke his face with only the odd flinch and he is starting to show some affection, shouting to me and nuzzling me while I am in the stable.

I have been trying to form as much of a bond with him as possible, brushing, going for walks, sitting in his stable, lots of ground work. I spent a few months just lunging him to get him used to what I was asking of him and for me to get used to his ways, this went really well. He has his 5 minutes of bucking and rearing and running round like a lunatic and then understands that its time to get some work done. He is now a lot better to lunge and will even do transitions such as walk to canter while focusing on me completely.

Out on a hack he used to buck and rear all the way down the lanes, he would constantly try to head for home and be looking for things to spook at, I learnt to sit to this and let him have his moment and once he had calmed down I calmly walked him past whatever had made him have that reaction. He is starting to get better at hacking out and will even go alone now, he is not completely safe and will still attempt to kick out at any loud cars and bucks and rears every now and again but I think some of it is just excitement as it seems to be when he realises he is on the way home. If anyone has any other ideas about why he does this please let me know!

In the school he is extremely well behaved, he doesn't buck or rear while riding him apart from if he gets frustrated about what you're asking him to do and he doesn't understand then he will throw his tantrum! However it is extremely rare for him to show this behaviour while in the school. My main problem now is that he is extremely still on the right rein and will not pick up the correct lead in canter. I have tried pole work and supplying exercises but now I'm stuck as he doesn't seem to want to do it. On the lunge he changes his lead quite a lot on both reins and seems balanced both ways. I have tried to stop this by teaching him to change on command which he now does but he still does it when not asked to. But when I'm riding he doesn't want to do it at all, I have tried to ask him on a corner, ask him on the bend, over exaggerate my movements and ask him to change once in canter and none work he just gets faster and faster.

When being led Rocky has the perfect manners in both the stable and whilst out walking. However he is very stubborn, he will not move back when asked to, he just pushes back against me or moves to the side. Also I put him in the field the other day and stood with him as he is still a bit nervy when alone, all of a sudden he looked at me and galloped straight towards me, he then stood up and reared in my face while pawing out over the top of me! I had nothing to fend him away with and had no choice but to jump over the gate to move away from him otherwise he would have come down on top of me, I have no idea why he did that so if anyone does then please help me with what I should do to stop it again! He is also extremely scared of the dark (sounds ridiculous I know) but in the dark he puts his head up as high as he can and acts extremely silly which is really dangerous!

I do feel like I've made a lot of progress with him but he's still testing me and pushing the boundaries and I'm starting to think that its all my fault and that I must be doing something incredibly wrong.

Please offer any advice you can no matter how small you think it may be!

Thankyou, Jess

[Sarahsmom]

Hi Jess,
I am not a horsewoman, but my daughter has an off the track thoroughbred. She was very frustrated with her mare until she started using Clinton Anderson's methods. I know some of the people here don't care for him, but Sarah was able to get her mare focused and listening using his method. You can check out Eliza's progress on youtube under the heading RoguesMoxy. Eliza is a completely different animal than the highly reactive mare she used to be.
Good luck with Rocky.

[rockman]

Thankyou I will have a look tomorrow, I'm willing to try anything and everything at the minute! Will let you know how I get on!x

[rockman]

I have just watched your daughter's videos, all I can say is wow! Eliza is incredible they look like they have an amazing bond! I am going to look into these techniques as I have not heard of them before but I'm impressed with your results! Thankyou! Hope she keeps improving!x

[ZenRider]

I'm thinking there were a lot of holes in his re-training off the track. There are no 'typical' Thoroughbreds, though my horse Guy would fit the stereo type better then most, and may have a personality similar to your boy's. Much of his problems have been due to holes in his training, combined with his personality. Of course, some of those holes were from someone teaching him how to get away with things. Though I don't think he realizes that really, I think he really thought he's doing what he was taught to do. He's a dork, but he means well.
My Zen, went through a few phases early in our partnership and nothing really uncommon from other breeds of horses when they are young. Due to where my life went, he's been mostly a trail horse.

I'm not a professional trainer and without hands on experience with a horse, am somewhat reluctant to really offer advice for a specific situation. Though with the canter thing, I would let him have more rein then what is 'proper' until he relearns his balance. Chances are he's spent more of his life galloping then moving collectedly. I go agree that going back with ground work can be a good start, but there is no magic fix and is best done in moderation. If you can, let him out in a paddock or if no one else is in the arena to get his bucks and yahoos out of his system before putting him on the line and asking for his attention. It's a good start for your relationship for him to understand the line means paying attention to you. In fact, you may try keeping him on a shorter line and just doing walk trot work for a while, until he starts relaxing more and focusing on you better. His changing leads means he's thinking about changing directions or just running out in general. If you are taking lessons with someone, what are their thoughts and suggestions?

Watch out scary video of Thoroughbred trail riding. www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5i7TVEcAhs OK, frighteningly boring.

Good luck with your boy.

[TeachU2Ride]

Hi. Welcome to ExRacers. :)

You're doing a lot of good things with Rocky... finding an environment he feels comfortable in, taking time for the two of you to get to know each other, lots of grooming and ground work to build trust and communication. Re-training an older horse can have its challenges, for sure. They've had a lot of time to form opinions and habits, and can take much longer than a younger horse to "get with the program". Good for you for being thoughtful and patient. You didn't mention what you're doing in terms of healthcare and feeding, so I'm going to outline a few things which may help you move your training forward...

Have you had him examined by a vet who specializes in horses? The problems you are describing with leads and backing are often a result of arthritis in the hocks (common in any horse Rocky's age, but especially in horses that have had long, demanding careers). A thorough lameness exam, which should definitely include flexions and may need to include radiographs, will help you decide if there is pain at the root of his resistance. If so, there are three basic options for treatment: feed supplements, intramuscular or IV injections, or IA (directly into the joint) injections. Your vet (and your wallet!) will help you decide which is best for Rocky's needs. [In my experience, IA injections, sometimes in conjunction with intramuscular injections, are the most effective and cost-effective.]

Have you ever had him examined/treated by an equine dentist? Overgrown, uneven and/or sharp teeth can have a tremendous impact on balance through the (in)action of the TMJoint. When a horse can't easily move his jaw in a natural motion, he can become stiff and sore, which in turn makes him resistant to flexing and bending. Simple floating should be done at least once a year and lots of practitioners can quickly file down rough places, but a vet who specializes in dentistry, or a certified equine dentist, is a better person to take care of the mouth. Some use hand tools and some use power tools and both methods are effective if the person doing the work is skilled. The advantage power tools have is that they are able to more easily address "ramps" at the rear of the molars by sitting on top of them and grinding downward - because the jaw muscles are so prominent there, and because there is so little room to work, a hand float often can't effectively re-shape those teeth (and those teeth, along with the incisors, are the ones that can "lock" the jaw.)

How are you managing his feeding and turnout? In general, horses are most happy and comfortable when they spend the majority of their time each day outside their stalls or pens. Grazing on good grass in a large pasture is excellent for physical and mental health but, even if there is not a lot of good grass, turnout in a large space (with quality hay fed either continuously or at certain times throughout the day) is important. *What* you feed is equally important. Basing Rocky's nutrition on the best quality hay you can find will help keep his energy up, but not over-the-top. Using a feed that is based on forage (alfalfa meal or beet pulp or a combination) is also a healthy way to go. Doing a little research into what constitutes a good nutritional hay type for your area and reading feed ingredient labels (the actual ingredients, not the percentages of protein, fat, etc.) can help you make good decisions that may produce significant positive changes for Rocky. [In my experience, higher quality feed and hay saves money because you get a healthier, more easily trainable horse... less money spent with the vet and less frustration for both you and the horse and your instructor!] It's also very possible Rocky would benefit from B vitamin, E vitamin, Selenium and Magnesium supplements. Horses who are "flinchy" and fussy and tight in their muscles/mind often become much more comfortable and calm on Quiessence or a similar product.

As for why Rocky occasionally misbehaves on the trail...You're working with an older horse who has had a long time doing things that required him to be very athletic. Some horses retire from that type of life with a sigh of relief and immediately learn to take it easy. Some take much longer to learn to relax and mosey. :-) Just stay patient. Time and more experience working at a leisurely pace may eventually convince him he doesn't need to be "on his toes" all the time, or even when something exciting happens under his nose. Or you may find he simply doesn't enjoy being out and about and find another way to work together.

ETA: The behavior he displayed in field (charging/rearing over you) may have simply been horseplay, but it is *unacceptable* for him to think that way about you. Be aware and verbally ("NO") correct him while waving him off with your arms or lead rope the next time he even thinks about it. Similarly, when you are grooming or just hanging out, it is never okay for him to raise his head over yours (a display of dominance). If he tries, raise your hands to his eye level and "push" him away. Don't hit him in the face, of course, but don't be afraid to bump his jaw with your forearm if necessary to get him to understand. We want our horses to be our friends, but they must also always be respectful of us as their leader... and the follower NEVER chases, threatens or gains position on the leader.

Looking forward to hearing back from you. If you have pictures and/or video, we'd love to see them.

[rockman]

Zenrider...thank you for your advice it's nice to know it's hopefully not all me! There have been lots of holes, he's been passed about a ridiculous amount of times and never really settled! I have been trying to completely loose school him a bit to see how he goes and found that he can then go on the right lead so I'm thinking it could be stiffness on the lunging circle? I do have trouble getting him to pay attention as he's distracted very easily! What could I do to get that focus? I will watch the video! I'll watch anything haha!x

[rockman]

Teachu2ride...thankyou for the warm welcome
rocky has been examined by a vet and back specialist who have said that apart from dome tension and stiffness on his right side they can't find anything! However his bones do click when being ridden which suggests arthritis could be a possibility I need to check for?

He had the dentist last month and had his teeth floated so all should hopefully be okay on that front!

Turnout is a problem for me at this time of year as it is very limited, he is probably only getting in the field about 3 hours a week however I am letting him into the paddock freely as much as I can but it's difficult because he constantly tries to charge the fences! He is fed on a chaff and baileys number 2 nuts which we add brewers yeast to and magnesium twice a day. He has a 15 pound net morning and night as well. Would you suggest changing any of this?

As long as you font think I'm doing anything drastically wrong I am willing to take things slow with him and have a lot of patients for him which I hope will pay off! He's a lovely horse and I know he can be brilliant despite what everyone says about how stupid I was go get him!

He understands a verbal no and I will hopefully be more prepared next time and he won't get away with it! As for lifting his head he does this quite a lot and I never realised that's what it meant so will put a stop to that!

I am trying a bungee lime out on him, do you have any opinion about these?

Thank you for all your advice I'm sure I'll have tons more questions!!x

[TeachU2Ride]

If you didn't specifically examine his hocks, I would still suggest doing so. Back stiffness/discomfort is another sign of arthritis in those joints.

How large is the paddock you use for turnout? And how many hours each day is he out of his stall?

Because the terminology re: feed is so different in our countries, could you please post the first five ingredients from the bag label?

Can you describe the bungee you're using... how it fits the horse and what it's supposed to be doing for him? In general, I'm not a fan of any kind of gadget but, again, it might mean something different from what I think of as a bungee.

[rockman]

The vet is on their way as Rocky is poorly (I'll put more detail on another post) so going to have a look at his hocks as well

It is a full size outdoor arena so fairly big and he can get a good out stretched canter down the long side! During winter he probably only gets out between 1-2 hours a day however in summer he is out all day.

I will look at his feed at some point but I've been really stressed with him at the minute so not had chance to do anything!

The bungee goes over their poll, down the side of their face, through the bit and connects as either side reins or through their legs. It is fully elasticated which Rocky seems to like and only comes into action if they raise their head too high otherwise it's not really felt! Rocky seemed to really enjoy it, he was concentrating a lot more and his ears were forward the whole time, you still have to make them Work from behind though!

[baymareb]

Jan 3, 2014 15:11:21 GMT -5 rockman said:

When I got him he was extremely nervous, I was unable to brush his face and when brushing his body he flinched every stroke.

My mare was sensitive about brushing when I got her. A lot of TBs have thin, sensitive skin. I use soft brushes on her and a rubber curry. However, I don't tolerate any cranky, fussy behavior. At first I thought it was because she was uncomfortable but I soon realized that she was trying to dominate the situation.

Jan 3, 2014 15:11:21 GMT -5 rockman said:

I spent a few months just lunging him to get him used to what I was asking of him and for me to get used to his ways, this went really well. He has his 5 minutes of bucking and rearing and running round like a lunatic and then understands that its time to get some work done. He is now a lot better to lunge and will even do transitions such as walk to canter while focusing on me completely.

Groundwork is always great. I find with my mare though that she is very smart and likes to test her boundaries. I do NOT allow any foolishness on a lunge line. And I don't allow rearing at all. If they want to rear in the field with other horses, fine, but not when they're being handled in any way. It's one of the toughest habits to break so I don't have any interest in letting it go. Just my opinion but for me, I've found that I need to be firm (but fair) with Bella. Otherwise, she will try to walk all over me.

Jan 3, 2014 15:11:21 GMT -5 rockman said:

he is not completely safe and will still attempt to kick out at any loud cars and bucks and rears every now and again but I think some of it is just excitement as it seems to be when he realises he is on the way home. If anyone has any other ideas about why he does this please let me know!

I would say he does it because he can. Be careful when you justify bad behavior ("I think some of it is just excitement..."). It doesn't really matter what the reason is (unless it is pain and he's trying to tell you but it doesn't sound that way) - bad behavior should not be justified or tolerated. Horses are very big, powerful creatures and they can crush you like an eggshell. I've owned and ridden and handled horses for close to 40 years but I am never cavalier about that fact. My mare broke my face in 6 places when she was a 5 year old. She didn't mean to. She was coming off stall rest, had tons of pent-up energy and her ground manners were not fully locked in. I'd begun hand walking her, she suddenly reared and lost her balance. She fell backwards and pulled me straight into her flailing front feet.

And I realized it was largely my fault because I'd excused her "bounciness" as youth and high spirits. It doesn't matter though - it's dangerous. She also threw tantrums when she didn't understand what I was asking. I think the best way to manage this is to have short schooling sessions that build slowly on the things he's learned so far. When you feel him start getting fussy, ease off and ask for things he knows, then slowly build on them.

Jan 3, 2014 15:11:21 GMT -5 rockman said:

However he is very stubborn, he will not move back when asked to, he just pushes back against me or moves to the side.

This is not stubborn - this is dominance behavior. He is trying to dominate you and that is what led to his behavior when he galloped and reared at you. Bella was very feisty and a little aggressive when I got her and I was not sure how to handle it. She didn't seem to respond to things other horses did - she was not in the least respectful of a lunge whip, for example. A very good friend, who is a trainer, advised me to put a plastic bag on the stiff end of my lunge whip and free lunge her with it. I was skeptical because she is not in the least afraid of plastic bags but when she saw it on the end of the stick and heard it rattle, it got her attention in a hurry.

Basically, I just stood quietly with the stick by my side as long as she was doing what I asked. The minute she misbehaved in any way - kicking out in my direction (even from a long distance - not okay), rearing, running past me closely, ignoring my personal space - I shook that bag at her hard. Within a week, I'd earned her very clear respect. I hand walked her with it as well until she learned to step away when asked, back up when asked, not crowd me, and sure as he*% don't rush at me when loose!

Sorry, I sound like I'm criticizing or nitpicking a lot but it sounds like you're having some similar experiences as I did. Bella was (and is) a sweet horse with no real malice in her but she is a horse and a very smart one. She did like to test (still does actually but I'm on to her and we have a fantastic relationship now - she's 9). She was feeling me out and figuring out what she could get away with and it sounds like Rocky is a similar type - very sweet and not mean at all but testing you. So my advice would be to be very firm about manners - don't make excuses for him or justify any bad behavior. But also take things slowly enough so that he is able to succeed without getting stressed out and frustrated.

Good luck!