The Story of Charlie and my humble request for advice!

[carey]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and hoping I can get some good advice! I'm getting a bit desperate/disheartened/frustrated and sad with the situation I am in with my OTTB Charlie! I want to give as much info as possible so I apologise if this reads like an essay!

This is my story about Charles. Writing this I can see where a lot of my problems/his problems have come from and why he has not made much progress, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I do ask though that if commenting, please be gentle with me! I know I have made mistakes…
I got Charles in December 2013. He is a rising 7, grey gelding. The girl who had him before me worked at the track with him and took him when he retired in August 2011. He ran 14 races and let’s just say, wasn't very good! This was over a period of 4 years. I don't know how long she spelled him or what she did with him in the year she had him but it wasn't much. And I don’t think it was good either.
So, a friend of mine started helping me with him when I got him. In the arena he was twisting/crossing his jaw, tilting to the outside and rushing in the trot. This was in a snaffle bit and Hanoverian bridle. So we decided to try him in a grackle bridle which didn’t really work. Then we changed the bit to a Waterford loose ring, which he didn’t like. Then a dutch gag was suggested which made him drop his head so low that he was really close to tumbling head-over-heels.
***I must mention that although I had experience riding for years through my life and had leased another horse for a year before I got Charlie, I was, in hindsight rather naïve and so I accepted the suggestions of my friend because I didn’t know any better.***
At this point my friend was mainly riding him and trying to get him to slow down in the arena by doing lots of circles and trying to be very gentle with his mouth. She did make some progress but not much. Then she decided to do some jumping with him, very low of course but it was a complete disaster and I don’t know why she thought it would be a good idea. She took him to a cross country course to see how he went and it went very badly. She ended up breaking crop on his backside which actually made him bleed. (My stomach is turning as I write this). This was because he wouldn’t jump over a ditch. They went over a solid wooden fence as well, which he knocked with his front legs and I have no idea how he managed to stay upright. Miracle I think… His last hurrah in jumping was at a small show jumping comp (his second) where they did not even make it in to the ring for their round. His anxiety levels shot through the roof in the warm up ring, he was fully covered in sweat within 5 minutes of being in there. She couldn’t get him near a jump. He was pig rooting, prancing and throwing his head up in the air and then chucked in a rear for good measure. I put a stop to it then and by this time the corners of his mouth were bleeding… She then took him to a round yard and set him off cantering around but I put a stop to that too because he was just in panic mode and was going to seriously injure himself.
I felt absolutely awful about everything to that point and realised we had just been way too over-zealous with him and that he had not been anywhere NEAR ready for any of what he was being MADE to do.
Needless to say, I put a stop to all of it. I left him alone for about 3 weeks to try and settle his frazzled brain (I think it exploded!). I said, no more gadgets, no more jumping, no funny bits and no grackle noseband. I started researching and did a bit of ground work and soft and gentle lungeing with him. We went out on a few bush rides – just walking. I noticed more and more his anxiety when we were away from home though. He is not spooky but when in the bush is always looking around, wide eyed and a bit snorty.
We took him to a horse beach (with a paddock friend). All was fine until he saw a canoe. Anxiety levels through the roof. Snorty, wide eyed and won’t stand still. He ran circles around me for ages and I could not get him to calm down.
Then a couple of months ago, we went for another bush ride, he was getting to be a bit calmer on parts of the rides so I thought we were making progress. Long story short, we decided to go for a bit of a canter. As we turned a bend (same direction as the track!) something seemed to just snap in his head and he bolted. By the time I realised what was actually happening, it was too late for a one reign stop. To tell you I was terrified would be an understatement. At the end of a long straight I managed to turn him slightly and realised I needed to get off him which I managed to do without hurting myself somehow. He didn’t stop, even when my friend tried to stop him. He galloped until he reached some bushland near to the stables and stopped.
I have been trying to figure out what caused him to do this. 1. There was a horse behind us. 2. We turned a bend just like on the track. 3. As we turned there was a lot of sudden traffic noise… Who knows! All I know is that any trust I had in him vanished and same story for him… We went back the next day to the same spot and I tried just walking him up in the opposite direction he had bolted and he got really silly and prancy and kept trying to take off again. Not a nice experience.
Since then have been a few more bush rides and done not much work in the arena.
A couple of weeks ago I decided I was going to start from square 1 again with him. Just me. So, we have started practising walking and halting, walking and halting. With the lightest possible and loosest possible reins I can! Last Saturday he was really good in the arena and he was really getting it. We had a few times in the beginning where he just grabs the bit and pulls me forward, but with persistence he stopped doing that and it didn’t take long. Straight after that, my friend asked if I wanted to bring him for a walk just up the road to cool down (she was on her three year old). It was a HUGE mistake but I just don’t understand what I am doing wrong and why he is behaving like this! We got out on the road and he was ok. Then we turned to go up another road and then he started trying to turn around to go home. I didn’t let him and tried to do a few circles (walking). Then a couple of girls on their ponies came along and well, I don’t know if it was them or not but when we turned around to go home he started trying to take off with me and was pulling through my hands and I just could not get him to walk and all my work in the arena, being soft on his mouth etc went out the window! I got off and led him and halted him and led him and halted him which slowed him down but as soon as I got back on, he started up again.

I went to a Monty Roberts clinic a few weeks ago and bought “ From my hands to yours”, a dually halter, long lines, signed up to the university etc. and I am taking him to a horsemanship clinic next week but I honestly just don’t know what to do anymore!

Will he ever get over his anxiety? How can I help him?
How do I get him to calm down in the bush and stop trying to take off with me all the time WITHOUT ruining his mouth even more!
How do I start making progress with his flatwork?

I just want to be able to ride him without him grabbing the bit, rushing, pulling, pig rooting, getting totally anxious and worked up. Because I am not able to make any progress with him being like this. He hates it and I hate it!

If anyone has any suggestions, help or advice for me and my boy I would greatly appreciate it. I really don’t want to give up on him. I really don’t!

Thanks in advance


 

[TeachU2Ride]

Hi, carey... Welcome to ER.

First, don't beat yourself up. Lots of people make mistakes training horses. It's quite the learning curve. Fortunately, horses are very forgiving. Once you get on the right track and stick with it, your horse will forget about the mistakes and allow you to form an entirely new partnership.

The most important thing you need to understand is: training takes TIME and PATIENCE. A tremendous amount of both. MORE than you can even imagine at this point. And KNOWLEDGE. Even more of that.

You're doing well to audit a clinic and seek more information through reading. Are there any professionals in your area with whom you can take some regular lessons, or better yet, put your horse in training for a few months? If so, take advantage of that. The money you spend on good instruction/training has incredible value, especially in the beginning stages when *just* the right signal given at *just* the right moment can mean the difference between success, failure and disaster. If you don't have access to a true professional (someone with a good track record of producing sound, sane, fun-to-ride horses), don't despair. You *can* learn a lot by reading books and articles and by watching videos. It'll just take you longer to make progress without experienced eyes helping to guide you as you try to implement what you've read/seen.

So, first things first: Basic health and soundness must be in good order before a horse can concentrate on learning. Problems with teeth, feet, muscles, nutrition, tack fit and turnout can all be roadblocks to success. I advise my customers to use a certified equine dentist at least once each year. Sharp hooks, points, ramps and misalignment of incisors are irritating and cause pain and balance problems along with resistance to accepting contact with the rider's hands/reins. I also advise trimming/shoeing on a schedule of no longer than 6-week intervals. Heel and sole pain and/or excessive toe leverage and other hoof imbalance can cause tightness/soreness throughout the body. A diet high in forage, low in non-structural carbohydrates (NSCs) and balanced for minerals and vitamins is an important part of preparation for training. If the horse is "high" on sugar, his muscles may be overly tight and sensitive. Similarly, if he's lacking in magnesium, he can be so sensitive that the smallest stimulus can cause him to flinch and brace. Quiessence is a wonderful product. Finding a well-fitting saddle can be difficult on a horse with a back like yours. Those high/long withers are tough... you have to clear them in both height and width (and don't forget to feel inside the channel to make sure there is no pinch under where you sit) without pitching your weight towards the cantle (putting too much pressure on the sensitive low back). Turnout - for as much of the day as possible, in the largest area possible - is also critical to training success. A horse allowed to move freely throughout the day is in a much better frame of mind and more physically able to focus on learning than the horse coming out of a stall or a small pen or paddock. Sometimes changing any or all of these things is enough to totally improve your success rate!

Okay... let's say all of the above considerations have been taken care of. Your horse's mouth, feet, tack fit, nutrition and turnout needs are being met 100%. Now what?

Now, you say to yourself, "It takes TENS of THOUSANDS of correct repetitions for a horse to really LEARN." Repeat. And think about that. And believe it with all your heart. Tens of thousands of CORRECT repetitions. Not counting all the times he tries to do something and doesn't quite get it right. Tens of thousands of correct repetitions before he can be totally relied upon to give you a smooth answer to your request. Wow. Seriously. This is where the Time and Patience part come in.

When you have a beautiful, young, athletic horse, it's quite easy to look at him and think flowing, balanced movement is easy to come by. After all, just look at him in the field! He trots and canters gracefully,gallops like mad but then immediately walks quietly, changes his leads effortlessly. Riding him should just be a matter of being kind and gentle and positive and doing some exercises to teach him some new things. And that's right. What they don't tell you is that you have to spend part of *nearly every day*, for *months* and *years*, being kind and gentle and positive, and *competent* doing those exercises. Oh, and you have to be able to ride well enough (read: very balanced and confident and nearly ambidextrous) to *not* confuse your horse with conflicting signals. And you have to know which exercises work best, in what order, and to what degree of completion before you add something a little more difficult to the mix. And you have to be able to soothe your horse when he's worried without accidentally praising him for doing something stupid... and discipline him without any frustration or anger... and support him when he needs physical or mental help with a task without losing your focus on the goal... and know when to ask for more... and know when to quit. Whew! The hardest part of training a horse is learning to train a horse. It doesn't just happen that because you can ride fairly decently you can also train. You have to learn.

Starting with ground work is excellent, but you have to know what you want (what it looks like when it's done correctly) and know how to get there. Longing can be wonderful. It can also be useless in that if you're not directing the horse you are just further teaching him to ignore you and/or worry about you. Trail riding (*our* bush riding) is fabulous, but you have to choose the right trail companions and the right circumstances so it's a positive experience. Think of all of it like school for us. The silly, simple games we played in our earliest school years were teaching us basics of language, social interaction, courage, perseverance, reward for success, and how to deal with failure. Then we move on to slightly more complicated tasks, and on it goes until we're graduated from university and ready to take on a profession. Because horses don't need to build rockets, their timeline for education is shortened compared to ours, but not by much. Simple steps, made more simple by excellent timing of positive reinforcement or timely, unemotional application of negative reinforcement, build on simple steps... and you always confirm the foundation, even while moving on. Time. And patience.

You and your horse DO need to start over. Skip the longing for now unless you're sure you're doing it with purpose. Stay in an arena where you have control. Work on gaining respect and trust with transitions between halt, walk and trot. Work on asking your horse to accept a *steady* contact with the reins. (Super-soft reins often work against you... the horse NEEDS direction, both steering and balance, and you can't give that with droopy reins. He should allow you to hold his mouth without pulling on your part or his at all gaits.) Work on asking for and getting a regular speed (no random slowing down or speeding up) at each gait, which should not change until you request that it does. Work on suppleness with simple figures at walk and trot (large circles, half turns, serpentines, figure 8s). Add canter to your sessions only after walking and trotting through all those figures, in both directions, is 100% reliably obedient and smooth. When you do begin adding canter, ask for only brief periods (one long side, or one large circle) before making a transition downward. Keep your sessions to 30-45 minutes under saddle. Be consistent with your grooming, tacking up and warm up. Spend a little time (even 10 minutes) hand grazing after work. DO NOT go out in the bush again until you have complete control in the arena at walk, trot and canter. And hang in there. You can do it.

If you need some specific lesson plans, let me know.
Good luck. Let us know how things are going. We're happy to help.
If you have any video, please post it.

[Sarahsmom]

I don't know much. Don't know where our experienced exracers are - they will probably chime in. My daughter's OTTB mare was very hard to get to calm down. She literally "lost" her mind when she took her to a training show. Sarah was thinking of giving up on her. Finally my daughter found that lots of groundwork helped her mare focus on her and she has improved tremendously. Sarah follows some of the Clinton Anderson exercises, but I'm sure there are lots of others that may be equally as effective.
Hope this helps.

[Pam]

Wow. Where to start and I'm not being mean saying that. I'm truly trying to figure out how to help guide you. First off, YOU, as naive as you think you are, are going about it in a MUCH better manner than your so-called "trainer" friend. I'm glad you recognized that she was making things MUCH worse and put a stop to it. IMO, anyone who leaves a horse bleeding from a beating should have the crop turned on them for awhile. Taking Charlie out of her hands is the single best thing you could have done, above all else. Have confidence in your instincts with Charlie. From what you are saying, you have the correct feelings, you just need help in putting them into motion. Since you removed Charlie from the horrible situation he was in, I think you are approaching things in a more positive way and that's a good thing. You do need to remember a few things about Charlie's life before you got him compared to his life now in order to advance his training.

Charlie was a racehorse and although racehorses see lots of things that many other horses don't (large noisy crowds, starting gates, hell-bent-for-leather runs), they see very, very little of anything else. Charlie has most likely never seen a ditch, or a jump standard or even a cross-rail. He has most likely never had to walk through a puddle, let alone jump over one. At the track, if he encounters a puddle, he will try to go around it and his groom will let him. For a racehorse, it's not something he needs to learn, so from the groom's perspective, why bother fighting with him? You say he is wide eyed and snorty. That's because he is frightened and his mind is in flight mode which is a horse's natural reaction to being afraid. They are, after all, flight animals and prey. In his mind, any number of things (lions, etc) could be hiding in those bushes, ready to jump out and try to eat him. I know it might sound funny, but to him, it's not. He truly believes that's what could happen and the only way to get him over it is through experience. He gains experience each time you take him out. The key is to make those experiences positive ones. Your method of walking is spot on. You found out for yourself what happens when you added speed. Most likely it had nothing to do with the direction you were traveling or the fact that you went around a bend. My gut feeling is that Charlie was simply getting more excited and scared as he cantered until he couldn't handle it and just took off. Don't do that again, lol. I'm really glad it ended ok for all, it could have been much worse.

I would go back into the ring for most of his works. Taking him out on the trail is good, but I would do it at the end of an arena session and just walk him. Let him relax and learn that trail riding is a good thing, it's a time to rest and just look around and enjoy the day. John Lyons has some rules abut training that IMO are probably the best advice I have ever heard and ones that I try to remember every single time I interact with a horse. The first rule is "I can't get hurt". That, first and foremost, is the most important. No horse, no matter how much you "love" him, is worth getting hurt for. The second rule is "The horse can't get hurt". Cantering a green, wide-eyed, snorty horse on a trail could easily have broken both of these rules. The third rule and as far as the actual training portion of the work goes is "The horse should be calmer at the end of the lesson than he was at the beginning". This is the tricky part. You need to ALWAYS maintain your cool and let him learn to trust that you are not going to hurt him (at least not to the point of making him bleed) to get him to respond.

Horses have a hierarchy within their herds. The alpha (or top) horse is always one that commands respect without resorting to "beating up" the other horses. I'm not saying that if a horse misbehaves he shouldn't ever get a spank, BUT that's where it needs to end. Send him a message that he's done wrong and move on. If you watch the alpha in a herd, they will rarely actually resort to violence and if they do, it's short, to the point and then it's over with. One bite, a swift kick and it's done. No beating the crap out of the other horse because she's (the alpha horse is most often a mare) angry. It's just "I said do this, now do it" and then as far as she is concerned, it's done. If the horse who committed the infraction does it again, the punishment will be the same. Another great trainer that I greatly admire is Clinton Anderson and he also follows the herd hierarchy method. Ask, tell, spank. Then forget about it and move on. Say an alpha horse wants a certain pile of hay that a lower ranking horse is eating from. She will move to the pile. She's "asking" the other horse to move away. In most cases, the lower horse will immediately move off. If he/she doesn't, the higher horse will pin her ears and maybe snake her head at the offender. She is "telling" him. If the horse then doesn't move away, one swift bite or kick will drive home the point "I SAID MOVE!". "spank"

You goal as the trainer is to become the alpha horse, the one that Charlie looks up to for direction and reassurance. If you are firm, yet kind, you will achieve that goal. He must learn to trust you inside the arena though before you risk taking him out into the open where things can get a lot more dangerous. While you are in the ring, you should start at a walk, working on stops, turns, backs, and most importantly, relaxation. Don't go any faster until he performs perfectly at the walk. Remember that speed=excitement. You want Charlie to remain calm and relaxed at a walk before you go any faster. Personally, I would use a good ole-fashioned snaffle bit to start. That's what he used at the track and that's what he will respond to best IF you take the time he needs for him to realize that he has a different job now. Lots of circles, (your friend at least had this part right), changes of direction, stops, backing. Don't be afraid to use your voice. He most likely already understands WHOA. Use that. Talk to him. Reassure him that he is doing good.

When he is responding PERFECTLY at the walk, try asking him to trot and go through the whole procedure all over again. Don't forget he IS already trained so your job is a bit harder. Not only do you have to train him to do what you want him to do, you also have to UNtrain him to not do what you don't want him to do. At the track, he learned to carry a rider, lean on the bit for support, switch leads when asked and to run like hell. He learned to break from a starting gate at full speed and not to let a horse pass him that was getting close. You are asking him to do stuff that he hasn't learned yet. You need to TEACH him what you want him to do now, not just punish him when he doesn't.

Hang in there and don't be afraid to come back here and ask for help.

[Pam]

ow, you say to yourself, "It takes TENS of THOUSANDS of correct repetitions for a horse to really LEARN." Repeat. And think about that. And believe it with all your heart. Tens of thousands of CORRECT repetitions. Not counting all the times he tries to do something and doesn't quite get it right. Tens of thousands of correct repetitions before he can be totally relied upon to give you a smooth answer to your request. Wow. Seriously. This is where the Time and Patience part come in.

I wanted to expand a bit on Teach's statement. WHen you are teaching a person, if they get an answer wrong, you can say,
"no, that's wrong and here's why and here's how to do it right". With a horse, you can't do that. When you ask a horse to do something new, he doesn't understand what you are asking him and so he has to "guess". He might guess right (in which case you are extremely lucky) or he might guess wrong (much more likely). So you have to give him a chance to guess again. And again. And again. You can't punish him for guessing wrong or he will be afraid to try the next time. And just because he guessed right once or twice or 25 times, doesn't mean that it's clear to him. As he gets better, his correct guesses will get closer and closer together until FINALLY, as Teach said, after perhaps tens of thousands of correct guesses the light bulb goes on and he says "OHHHHH!!! This is what you are asking me to do!!!! I GET it! I GET it!" It most certainly, absolutely and positively is a PATIENCE game when training horses.

[niaru]

Sept 10, 2013 16:28:53 GMT -5 Pam said:

I wanted to expand a bit on Teach's statement. WHen you are teaching a person, if they get an answer wrong, you can say,
"no, that's wrong and here's why and here's how to do it right". With a horse, you can't do that. When you ask a horse to do something new, he doesn't understand what you are asking him and so he has to "guess". He might guess right (in which case you are extremely lucky) or he might guess wrong (much more likely). So you have to give him a chance to guess again. And again. And again. You can't punish him for guessing wrong or he will be afraid to try the next time. And just because he guessed right once or twice or 25 times, doesn't mean that it's clear to him. As he gets better, his correct guesses will get closer and closer together until FINALLY, as Teach said, after perhaps tens of thousands of correct guesses the light bulb goes on and he says "OHHHHH!!! This is what you are asking me to do!!!! I GET it! I GET it!" It most certainly, absolutely and positively is a PATIENCE game when training horses.

This is so true and needs to be emphasized and posted in every barn. It's so easy to get frustrated and try to rush things. But if you ignore the "honest" mistakes, but PRAISE the horse when he guesses right, and you praise him every time he guesses right, you will see results.

Good luck with Charlie, and I'm glad you took away from the destructive "trainers".

[ZenRider]

About all I can add is it may take thousands of times before the light stays on, but don't try to do them all at once. I have seen horses 'get it' only to be asked over and over and over until the horse finally decides, 'well, maybe that's not what they want.' so the horse tries something different. Which of course now the rider feels I have to keep asking until the horse gets it right again. So, though repetition is key, as all good things, must be done in moderation.

[CC]

And just a tidbit about your emotional state when you are working to correct a bad situation...my trainer constantly talks about riding with a positive mindset. After every ride, come up with 2 things that you have done right; write them down, tell them to your spouse/friend etc. Try not to focus on the negative things your horse does. I ride by a quote that my trainer heard Robert Dover make in a clinc she audited years ago. To paraphrase he stated that you should only ride with two emotions: joy and neutral. It really, really helps me to remember that when my youngish (but still green...sigh) TB is spooking at the same thing for the hundreth time in a ride LOL!

My younger TB is not OTT. But he spent a good amount of time healing from a tendon laceration. So he really has not done much of anything. And I did not put the time into riding him as I should to establish that he could trust me as the alpha. Things started to get a bit ugly. I've been riding for 30+ years; I should have know better but we all make mistakes. I started weekly lessons again with my trainer and we were back on track in just a week's time and really progressing now. It just takes time and mucho patience.

Good luck with Charlie.

P.S. Where are you? Do you know of any trainers who regularly work with TBs in your area? I'll second/third that it is money very, very well spent.

[carey]

Hi everybody!

Wow I am overwhelmed by your responses and kindness! Sorry I disappeared for a while, have been very busy!

Teach, your post is very helpful and makes a lot of sense. I went to a horsemanship clinic with him this week and although we couldn't do most of the ridden work, the clinician, Steve Brady, gave me some personal attention and exercises to work on based on what he saw in Charlie. Firstly I must perfect the "one-rein stop" in walk trot and canter. He suggested practising this for 21 rides. The next exercise is "The passenger". I get on him and push him into a trot. I must hold on to a neck strap and leave the reins alone. He can go wherever he wants in the arena as long as he stays in a trot for 15 minutes straight. If he canters, I pick up the reins and do a one-rein stop and then push him up into a trot again. The clock starts from the beginning again whenever he breaks the trot. If he stops or slows to a walk he has to start again. I know this exercise is going to be very difficult for him and me! This could take quite a while to get right I think! I must then continue to practice this exercise over however many rides it takes until he stays in the trot for 15 minutes without breaking the trot.

The next exercise "follow the fence" is the same exercise, however he must stay along the fence of the arena in a trot for 15 minutes. The same as above applies for breaking stride. If he starts to veer off course I must apply gentle, smooth pulls to the outside rein to correct him. Once he has managed it on the one side, he must rest a while and then I must repeat on the other rein.

Once he has completed each exercise 3-4 times successfully (obviously over quite a few rides), I move on to the canter and repeat the same process.

So Teach, your advice was much the same as his! I would have taken your advice anyway!

Also, on top of all of the above there are groundwork exercises to work on before each lesson too. He did them quite nicely at the clinic so I was pretty happy about that!

I promise not to go out in the bush with him until things are working better between us!

Also, what does "hand grazing" mean? Haha sorry! If I try to figure it out it could mean a few things!

You mentioned lesson plans. I would love to have some plans to work on once Charlie and I have completed all of the above, so if you have anything that would be suitable for us I would love that!

Sarahsmom, thank you for your comment. It gives me hope! Funny enough Charlie was so well behaved at the clinic that people were commenting on how calm and relaxed he was and how beautifully he came off the float etc. It's when he gets into a new arena with horses he doesn't know or when he goes in the bush etc that he goes a bit silly. I have heard of Clinton and watched a bit of his stuff. Sice Pam and yourself have mentioned him, I think I need to get a bit more serious about him and learning about his method!

Pam, thank you for your lovely advice. Very similar to what Teach was saying which just confirms it all over again. As you say, I should not move up to trot or canter before he can do everything (walk, halt, back up, circles, figure 8's, serpentines) calmly and is relaxed. I will incorporate all this before I start with the trot "Passenger Lesson" suggested by Steve Brady. May I ask what will help him to relax?

Niuru, thank you, I will always remember to praise!

ZenRider, thanks for your comment. It makes sense! Can you please elaborate on what time frame you are talking about here? Do you mean asking for the same thing in the same lesson too many times after he has gotten it right, or do you mean over time?

Thank you CC I will make sure I focus on a positive mindset as I do get upset when I go home after a "bad" ride. There is always something I will be able to find that is positive from the ride and If I write them down after each ride it will help to keep things in perspective when things don't go so well!

So to close off this reply I'll just make a few general comments too.

Firstly, I would love to be able to send Charlie to a good trainer that understands how to gently and effectively re-train ex-racehorses. Hope fully I will be able to do something like that in the not too distant future. They cost roughly around $600 a week and I reckon he would need more than a few to make some real progress so that's just not an option for me right now! I do also like the idea of being able to contribute a bit to his training even though I am not a trainer! Maybe this is my stepping stone into it though.

Secondly, writing about the experience Charlie and I had with my friend really drove home how wrong it all was. However, I have moved on and learnt a lot from that. I don't hold any grudges and we are still good friends. The best part about it is that she has learnt so much from this experience too and realised that the way she was going about things was bad, bad, bad. It has become apparent to me that a lot of people who attended Pony Club as children and teens in Australia have learnt some not so kind ways of dealing with horses. The use of whips, crops and spurs is normal. I have seen kids whacking the crap out of their beloved ponies, digging their spurs in and ripping on the poor things mouths like there is no tomorrow. All those things seem to be normal practice. This is where my friend was taught and so in her mind that is the way you deal with problems. Refusal =punishment. I will MAKE you do this, not I would like you to WANT to do this for me. She had never been interested in any natural horsemanship, ground work etc etc until she met me and she has changed and grown immensely! She is a good rider and a good person and what she has learnt through this experience has changed her perpective of what it is to be a rider, leader,  partner.

Ok here are some pics of Charles all dressed up for the clinic, will have to try and get some video too...

[Pam]

Carey, The main thing that will help Charlie to relax is for YOU to relax. He will take his cues from you, if you are tense and nervous, he will pick up on that and will also be tense and nervous. When I was speaking of it in my post, I was referring to it while you are trail riding, but it holds true no matter what you are doing. Stay calm, give clear firm directions and don't punish him for what he doesn't understand. Just let him try again.

Specifically, out on the trails, the best thing you can do is to have another horse who is calm and experienced lead the way. Also, and this is a mistake that people make all the time, DON'T force him to approach something he is afraid of. If he is afraid of an object and you make a big deal out of it, he will think it IS a big deal. In all likelihood, it will end up being a big battle and he will be worse the next time he sees it because he will remember the bad experience. Do your best to just get past it and then continue on as though it wasn't even there. The next time, he will go by a little easier, remembering that he DID go by it and nothing bad happened. As time goes on, he will figure out that the big scary thing is nothing to be afraid of. Each time this happens, he will learn to value your opinion more and more until soon he will trust that you won't send him into a dangerous situation.

[ZenRider]

Sorry, I should have elaborated that there really is no magic number of repetitions before a horse will remember what you want from a cue. Some things a horse will get quick, some things take more and these vary horse to horse. Horses like Charlie that has been taught to question what's being asked of him can take longer.
The biggest key in training, as has been mentioned, is to be consistent on how you ask for things. From there is not overdoing something you are working on, especially when the horse is 'getting' it, even if it's not perfect yet. Don't take any resistance personally.
The other most important thing to pay attention to ones self. To recognize when we may be asking for something we really don't want to ask for. In other words, if the horse suddenly does something other then what you thought you were asking, make sure it wasn't something you accidentally asked for. Self awareness helps with consistency with your horse.

Beyond that, finishing on a good note might be a couple of relaxed laps walked around the arena, especially if you are starting to feel frustrated at him not getting what you are asking. Sometimes it's just as good for the horse as you to sleep on it.

[Goalie]

He's gorgeous Carey and you have gotten a lot of good advice already so I am just going to repeat here that "groundwork is your friend" Welcome to exracers.

[carey]

Thanks again everybody!

We had two good groundwork sessions and rides in the arena on the weekend so that has helped me to start believing again!

I will keep you all updated

[bonesmom]

The advice here is great.

If saddle fit is the issue. My OTTB has a back like Charlie, I found a Stubben was perfect for him.

I just wanted to add that I stuck with walking and trotting ONLY in the ring for quite some time, after having a few "episodes". I don't think we cantered for a year, and after that it was very rare. He just got too wound up after cantering and I wanted to keep him relaxed. I took dressage lessons with him and it was so helpful. I had a great instructor.

I also wonder if he's barn sour? My gelding was a complete and utter MANIAC when I took him for a hack down the road to the trails, with or without a riding buddy. It was horrendous. I had to get off of him a couple of times because I thought he was going to flip me over in a ditch. And, he never acted like that if we trailered to the beach for a ride, or to the riding park. I just stopped doing it because it caused my emotions to get involved, and I didn't want to lose any of the trust I had built with him.

And, despite our ins and outs, and ups and downs, he is the most loving animal. Thoroughbreds want to please, they are so intelligent, they want to love you, and they are so freaking sensitive! Good luck. He's a beautiful boy.