Johnnie's post about horse freaking out at farrier

[BriscoMomma]

Johnnie, I hope you don't mind - I'm copying your post to a new thread in case it doesn't get noticed in the other thread by people who might have input with farrier issues specifically, rather than the 'concentration' aspects of the other thread and might not read there - plus this way a separate thread will be an easily identifiable reference for the future.

I got an e-mail from a friend of mine that you guys might can help with too.

"Argos is having serious issues with the farrier and
none of us can understand it, the guy has never hurt
him and I am there for the whole thing so I don't know
what is going on. He started right away being an ass
and has gotten worse. This last time he reared at
least six times and once struck out at the farrier and
once at his twelve year old son. We had the chain
over his nose, under his nose, a twitch and then
finally a scotch hobble which is horrible and just
makes you cry if it is me and your horse goes down
with one. He took major skin off my hand and even
after hitting his head on the roof of the barn still
kept rearing. This is so NOT my horse. He is still a
a dream to me, I can handle him, clean his hooves, he
rides well, I just don't know what to do. We are
going to dope him up big time for the next few rounds
with the farrier but hopefully this is not permanent. "

Background on the horse- We were at an auction in January of last year, and this guy was there. High as freaking kite in his stall. A guy was having to hold him in the stall with a chain to keep him from spazzing too badly. Anyway, my friend bought him . We got him to the barn and he was a totally different horse. Just sweet, calm, and relaxed. We also found out that the horse had raced just 4 days before. Anyway, this horse has been a total sweetheart. Stopped racing at 9, raced over 70 times. Sound, sane, loveable, etc. Our farrier actually loved this horse and made the comment on how well-behaved he was. Now my friend has moved a few hours away and taken her horses. Would a move provoke this kind of behaviour? Any suggestions?

I'd say that "better living through chemistry" is going to be the short-term option for this horse when he absolutely needs to be attended to by a farrier. Is it just with this farrier in particular? Has he ever tended to the horse without the owner around? If the individual himself isn't suspect in causing problems, I'd say that maybe the owner (who can apparently handle the horse's feet without problem) begins working with the horse in mimicking a farrier's actions - tapping on the feet, etc. Is he okay for the trimming part, but acting up for the actual shoeing, or just plan freaking out right away? I'd take off all of the hardware, too, IMO. It may just be getting him more riled up - if that stuff doesn't work right off, it's probably just making him worse.

If the farrier would be willing (or is around enough) to just work with the horse getting him used to having him (someone other than the owner) handling the feet, one at a time, just like teaching a baby from the beginning, that might help as well. He may have had a horrible experience being shod in the past. We have also had otherwise well-behaved horses that just NEVER came to terms with farrier care and always had to be tranq'd for shoeing.

I'd also look to see what is different about the situation when the farrier comes versus when the owner does daily tasks - in the same environment, cross-ties, etc.? Taken away from buddies (change in routine) to be shod? Just throwing out ideas here.

[Skye Pilot]

My old appy gelding was like this because of one bad experience. He slipped in cross-ties and fell on me when do-do farrier stabbed him as a 5 year old. I had him 24 years so until I found my farrier he was a basket case with all the farriers... for a while I just let his feet go... I was sick of new farriers coming over and saying "oh it is another (&*& appy" I went through a lot of farriers. Threw a lot off my farm. I had no problems working with this horse's feet. Spectors problem was all based on fear of the farrier.. the rougher the farrier the worse he was... he would hear the snip of the trimmer and just rear.

I have the greatest farrier now and I would pay that man what ever he wants to work on my horse's feet. Kind of a gruff tell you like it is, but he and I get along quite well. He can read a horse's body language. Other's just wanted to get the job done... get in and out of there.
First off we took away all the restraint mechanisms and allowed Spector if he could not handle it to take a break... we used NO CROSS-TIES.. we gave him a lot of praise and reward. It took longer to reverse the neg experience, but with patient he eventially would pick up his feet for Mike. Mike trimmed him for 15 years without any other problems.

I have watched Hoof talk on TV and watch Brege trim a wild horse for the first time. I smile because I see that my farrier really knows what he is doing. If you can locate that BLM episode it would be worth the time to watch.

[LynnC]

This is a tough one. I also had an appy/perchron cross that was HORRIBLE because of one bad experience. He was so sweet for me and tried to literally kill any farrier that was in striking distance.

As far as this situation, if he was at the track as long as he was, I would assume that they got his hooves done ok. Has your friend tried a different farrier? If the horse was ok for another farrier, maybe it is the current one. Even if he hasn't done anything, the farrier may remind him of a bad experience. In that case, I don't know what to tell you. It may be a losing battle. Best solutions may be to try someone else.

I spent a lot of time with my gelding trying to help him with these issues. I ended up selling him to a man with kids who adored him and a neighbor that was a farrier and would come out often just to work with him. In my experience this is a very dangerous situation. BE CAREFUL. My gelding would always pull away once 1 nail was in the shoe and that was terribly dangerous with that sharp end sticking out. He was so bad and knew exactly what he was doing. And with your friends horse rearing, I can only imagine what could happen. I'd be afraid of him coming down on top of someone with a nail sticking out. Again, BE CAREFUL.

[LynnC]

One more thing.......as far as trying to drug him. My farrier wouldn't work on a horse that was drugged because he has seen them come out of it unexpectedly and completely freak. Also ACE doesn't work. I tried it on my gelding and I think it just ticked him off more and then he was groggy trying to fight back. Using a drug now, isn't going to teach him, your friend may need to make a committment of always drugging him, which could be EXTREMELY expensive. I'd still say try someone else. It may save money and body parts in the long run.

[Christina]

I think it's very possible that the horse started freaking out because of the move. Stress, anxiety, and then projection towards the farrier, which just keeps escalating, as the experience becomes worse and worse. I had a similar experience when a friend's horse (always sweet as pie) went after me when I was helping her at a chiro visit. We had trailered her to a diff barn and couldnt figure out why she did it! Maybe try a different farrier and see if he's going to be that way ALL the time, or just with that particular farrier. The suggestion of increasing his space and going at his comfort level sounds pretty reasonable if you can get someone to take the time to do it! Grace HATES cross ties.

[Vida]

A couple of options. Don't crosstie. Handler to stand on the same side of farrier so the horse doesn't feel so trapped and if he does have to move, he won't hurt anyone. Handler to give treats while the farrier has the foot UP, not after he's put it down. Ask if farrier can move his body to where the horse wants his foot, not where the farrier wants his foot. I went through the same thing with Eagle and the farrier which is why I switched.

[Linda]

Don't overlook the possibility that farrier have been making his legs hurt. Horses aren't dumb. If they stand okay for the first leg, then get worse, they probably don't appreciate what the farrier is trying to do with their feet.

If you want that video by Bergy, go to >www.rfd-tv.com< (or maybe rfdtv) and order it. They aired it about 3 weeks ago.
Linda

[Johnnie]

Thanks Keely! I appreciate it.

My friend is so distraught over the whole ordeal. She called the barn in tears trying to figure out what to do. Our trainer said to dope him, but she doesn't really want to do that.

Miranda, his owner, said that she had been there everytime Argos has been seen by the farrier. He's not at a boarding barn, just a place that she rented, so she has to be the one to be there.

We have 2 fairly hot upper level event horses that would tear the barn down normally, but we just get about 15 lbs of carrots and keep shoving them in the whole time, and they aren't a problem.

I'm going to forward Miranda the information you guys have given. Thanks.

I just don't understand how Argos can be that bad without something to trigger it. He is such a lovable horse.

Oh yeah Lynne, I hear ya on the drugs, 2 Rompin shots plus Ace and Forest was still fighting them to float his teeth.

[CC]

Could his feet hurt??

Carambi started acting up for his hind feet to be done last spring. Now, he had hind shoes on for about 1 1/2 years at this point and he had always been perfect for his feet.

Because of my farrier's maternity leave, I had to find a new farrier. He is very good but Carambi has been giving him a fit also. I can sympathize with Johnnie's friend in how frustrating it is. Carambi was doing phenomenol under saddle so I didn't think it was anything like his hock being sore etc.

But, yesterday, the new farrier told me Carambi has corns on both hind feet and that is probably why he is acting up. He said the corns are probably bothering him when he nails. Hopefully, as they get better, he will start to stand better. The corns were probably caused by an unbalanced hind foot (he had flares and not enough extension of the shoe to support his heels).

[ClaireLV]

Yeh, its dangerous for horse and people! LynnC, your gelding sounds like Jasper. He pulls his foot away after the first nail, and he did this on my novice farrier who couldn't hold him, stuck the pointy end into his tendon sheath, and she (shoer) didn't tell me. First I know is a leg the size of a school bus and a very expensive vets bill, with the possibility of 'career ending' damage being talked about! Very scarey stuff.
Lots of good suggestions above, especially Vida - we missed you Vida!!!!