Eventing Horse Question

[Amy]

Johnnie,

Thanks so much for the stats! I would never have guessed that the percentage would be THAT high! Like I mentioned, I thought there was quite a bit of TB influence but I thought on paper it would have looked like they were other WB breeds. I tried to do some internet research last night and couldn't find anything, so I appreciate you taking the time to tally them up for us.

When I first started on my horse shopping journey, I really didn't think I would end up with a TB, especially an OTTB. I'm so glad I did! I LOFF them. And, the more I learn about eventing, the more I like it, they seem like a fun bunch of supportive people and they know how cool TB's are, too.

And thanks everyone for not totally blasting my ignorance. You know there are "other" boards that people would have taken the opportunity to prove their superior knowledge and made me feel like the small potatoes that I am!

[jennifer2]

I think warmbloods have what the Classicists called "circus gaits." They have elevation and snap with no back to front impulse.

Also, the few people I've actually carried on a conversation w/ about their warmblood preferences eventually get around to how "difficult" TBs are. The truth will out .

One gal I talked to even said she likes TBs but "They don't have a very good work ethic."

What did she mean by that? Whenever she asks one to "really work" it runs away with her.

Heaven forbid she goad a WB that far~ I hope her horses have good stop ethics.

[jennifer2]

I'm refering to many I see showing in upper level dressage these days. (On TV- I'm in Alaska).

[Einstein]

Katie, good to hear! My trainer imports all his horses, 1 was even a World Cup horse, but they all come from 2-3 stables in Germany, all from close lines, and almost all kick butt over here. Makes you wonder why the US isn't breeding better, and why we have to go buy in Europe.
Why can't we breed TBs for what we show? I mostly mean H/J because, it looks like TBs are doing well in Eventing.

Just wondering. Maybe then there would stop being suh a TB stigma in the H/J. That was also half of why I loffed winning on Shorty. He was big, thin, ugly and an OTTB and I loffed telling people their rediculously expensive WB was beaten by an exracer~in a nice way of coarse ;D

[Smay]

.. the one I just got, so it must be the April issue, has an article about eventing and the dressage phase, and how it's becoming so much more competitive in that phase that the former racehorses and TBs that used to RULE the event world, are either having to learn their dressage, or hand it over to the warmbloods who rule the dressage world. They say in this article that the only thing they can make any HARDER in eventing would be the dressage, since the x-country is as hard as it can possible get without killing people, and the stadium is pretty hard too. So they are making the dressage more valuable to the final scores...but that is the future of eventing. The reality of the NOW is that TBs are the only one athletic enough to pull off the speed and difficulty of the course! So now the problem is how do you contain a super-fit thoroughbred eventer in the DRESSAGE phase! hahaha

[Johnnie]

I don't know why I didn't throw the ISH and Anglo-Arab in with the TBs since they are TB crosses as well. I guess I just wasn't thinking.

If they keep dumbing down eventing, then yes, Warmbloods will be able to creep in more, but I think that TBs are perfectly capable of holding their own in the dressage ring in Eventing. There is one Warmblood that shows in our area that is definitely a dressage horse. He will score a 22 on a test (lower is better in Eventing, for those who don't know), but they won't let him run XC, and in stadium, he usually has no less than 20 penalities including time penalties. The other Warmbloods that show with us, don't have as much trouble jumping, but they don't score as well in dressage either.

If you want to know how to get a superfit TB around a Dressage test in a lovely relaxed manner, watch Kim Vinoski. She is amazing in the Dressage ring, probably because she used to show Dressage.

Dressage is not getting harder in Eventing, they've made it easier with the new tests. IMO. Unless they get Eventing dumbed-down to a ridiculous, should really be a Dressage show, level, I think TBs will keep holding their own, and no one can convince me otherwise.....lol

[jennifer2]

THIRD day- THEN the TBs will settle into their work.

The challenge isn't how to get the TB to settle down for dressage- The challenge is how to get ANY horse fit enough to do the x c and s jump phase and still be settled in the first day of the event.

I'll fight a long hard never tiring battle against anyone who claims that WBs are better at dressge than TBs. Because people cannot ride well enough to get along with a highly tuned sensitive horse, versus one who was essentially bred to pull a canon into war, does not mean that there is a deficiency in the horse.

Most WBs, especially at the "upper" levels of dressage, are heavy, clownish movers. Fifty years ago they would have been laughed out of the ring. Really.

Why is it that there is so much hand-wringing over horses that do well at the lower levels but don't "progress" where the upper level horses often didn't shine at the lower levels? Because in the lower levels FREELY FORWARD is rewarded and even REQUIRED. At the upper levels, a forward fluid horse loses to the exactness of a horse that is just flat over-ridden and drilled into submission.

I CHALLENGE anyone to find a GP dressage horse NOW, of any breed, who is being ridden without the curb being visibly drawn tight against his jaw, much less on a floating rein, and being ridden without there actually being pits around where the spurs are digging in. Invisible aids? True unity? I think not.

There are countless examples in photos and film from FIFTY OR MORE years ago of horses doing TEMPI changes without switching their butts from side to side, without the riders swinging first one then the other leg back to cue for the changes- which at the GP level should be performed off a hint of change of the rider's weight, not the dramatic see-sawing and leg swinging that is so prevalent today.

A horse even fifty years ago was not considered an upper level horse proper unless he could be ridden with all four reins in one hand, the whip upright in the other, and the rider's feet never ever even appearing to move.

Even the "ram and jam" has been given a semi-respectable name- "Deep." Overbent and over-rode, I call it. Don't do it to my horses.

Remember the phrase "Off the wind of the rider's boot." Strive to achieve that ideal. Your horse will appreciate it.

Read JRY's "Schooling for Young Riders." You'll see a photo of a teenage girl riding a pony she schooled with the help of her father, John Richard Young, USING reins MADE OUT OF A CUT UP BROWN PAPER BAG AND ATTACHED TO THE BIT WITH THREAD.

Do THAT on a wb!

[ZenRider]

Yeah, I even saw an old dressage book (1920's I think) on eBay that had pictures of a dressage horse and he didn't look anything like the horses do today. In not one of the few pictures shown is the horse ever behind the bit. What I want to know is when it became acceptable or even desireable to have the horse behind the bit all the time? To me, that's an evasion of the horse to the aid. I'd rather see them a little above the bit and not afraid of it, than behind it. But, hey that's just me.

Oh, I would have bought the book, but it went for around $70 YIKES!

[adcooper]

I've wondered if the dressage performance in eventing is more a reflection of the horse's ability, or the rider's priorities. How many eventers got into the sport because they loved dressage, first and foremost? How many do it because x-country is the most fun you can possibly have without a jet pilot's license?

[niaru]

ad, Good point! I like the "jet" comparison... ;D

[jennifer2]

ANYthing I can do for you!!!!

I have Noel Jackson's Effective Horsemanship, which I must admit I just bought for the diagrams, but then I READ it, and parts of it made me mad and I KNEW he was wrong, but then I TRIED what he said and found that I had been riding on assumptions and myths from the "non-fiction" literature. I can't wait to get a scanner (a promise I'm famous for making)...I will scan these amazing photos of horses doing passage on a floating rein and such.

Jinkies, even the LIPPIZANS IN VIENNA- THEY must still ride "in the light" -- there is so much JOY in riding a horse that's actually LIGHT on the aids. I see people with their spurs dug in and reins so tight and it causes me physical pain.


I remember when there weren't crank nosebands- when horses (JEEPERS!) kept their mouths quiet and closed with TWO FINGERS (that's in the old books) space in the cavesson.

What happened is the same thing that's happened to so many horse sports- don't hate me- but look at hunters...where in the world did the TWO FOOT division come from? Two foot is for PONIES with EIGHT YEAR OLDS riding them. We used to believe (I'm not sure I do anymore; at any rate I certainly don't care) that until one could do a 3'6 course nicely ONE DID NOT SHOW. And a LOT of us did them on our ponies, until we proved we could and THEN got a horse. (Or never got the horse ) And there shouldn't be "begining jumpers" either- I remember when the lowest division was Introductory, and that was four feet. (Because it's JUMPERS. If I can jump it on foot why ride?)(Not that I can jump even three feet on foot, but I'm almost an old lady now).

At any rate, dressage became the BUZZ word and EVERYbody changed their shingle to read "DRESSAGE" including WESTERN PLEASURE trainers.

We didn't used to have the "stretchy" circle in dressage, and I still think it's a crock, but it came about because so many horses were coming into the ring "framed up"...ie plain out SET into that outline...and with no real relationship to the bridle- just a headset. The reasoning is that if a horse will demonstrate that he can stretch out to the bit all the way down there's a chance the rest of the work was correct (and we still use this as a barometer- if the horse will NOT stretch down we KNOW something's wrong)...The problem is that a horse can be TRAINED to stretch down on "cue."

Oh well.

A whole lot of people who don't know the difference between lengthening and quickening and who ride front to back came into the dressage world all in a flood, they got pinned because competitions sprung up everywhere and there were more ribbons than there ought have been and people showing who didn't have a clue were winning because that was what there was and now they are the judges.

Now the people who were trained into dressage by short cuttin' shingle hangers and who won because the popularity of the sport spread faster than the people learned to do it now THEY are the judges.

They do not have a classical background; they do not understand the FUNDAMENTAL REASONS behind the whys and hows and they are short-cutting for the picture. It is not a new thing. All of the Masters talk about these people in their books when they EXPLAIN why things are done as they are done.

The problem is that when people are WINNING they don't want to be told they're doing it wrong, but that they are simply doing it wrong better than anyone else is, and when EVERYbody's doing it wrong, not many people care to do it right, because it really is easier to do it wrong, at least at first.

I have a LOT more to say about this, if you're interested, and bend my ear. I'm motivated by people who want to do it right.

[Christina]

Go Jennifer!
So what books do you recommend? I read a book from the library called "Dressage in Lightness". Can't remember the name of the author. but I believe she's in England. I decided that I also want to buy the book. Have you heard of it?

[jennifer2]

I don't know that one but I'd LOVE to hear about it.

I recommend, especially for TB people, anything by Wynmalen. I disagree with some of what he writes, for instance he believes that the pivot on the forehand should be around the outside foreleg so that the horse backs around it and some of his two-track discussion I can't decide if it's inspired or convoluted- and he was back in print last year and sadly I don't have any of his books in my bookshelf....

And, of course, anything by the immortal greats Horace Hayes and Chamberlin whose first name I never remember for sure (I have Hayes in front of me, but no Chamberlin AND Podhjasky, and even if you don't understand but every seventeenth word or so read it again and eventually every third word will make sense and you'll wonder how you lived without it and wish you could figure out the rest because you KNOW he's right.

But to start, John Richard Young's The Schooling of the Western Horse (now just The Schooling of the Horse- bigger but I don't see how it could be better because part of its charm is that it isn't too long)....

He lays out step by step how to take a horse from an uncultured yearling to a mannerly mount on the aids in a double bridle. The original title was just a trick to make Coca-Cola cowboys read a dressage book!!!

He has lines like "No genious has ever invented the gadget that can adequately substitute for good hands." and "The only thing he learns from the lesson is that it's h- to be a horse."

He also gives step by step instructions for how to bring a horse from a full gallop to a balanced halt w/out pulling on him.

And, of course, Sally Swift, so our centers and chis are in the right place, and Pat Parelli, so that our hearts and our minds are.

I don't find many European authors (who aren't Old and Dead) to be much help because, well, I don't like their riding, don't want to emulate it, and don't really need to read about how they do it.

[Johnnie]

Jennifer for President!! You are my new hero!!

ZenRider- You have hit on one of my biggest pet peeves. Horses being behind the bit, and ones that don't flex at the poll, but break at the 3rd vertebra and get behind the bit. I always have fits about this because it seems to be rewarded almost, definitely not penalized, and horses that are above the bit just slightly every so often are raked over the coals.

I won't comment on not starting showing until 3'6 because I think the lower levels were made to draw more people in and allow more people to enjoy the sport. With Eventing getting criticism and a possible outing from the Olympics, and 3-days nearly becoming extinct, I think we need to do what we can to bring more people and more support into our sport. I don't have a problem with having lower classes, but I do have a problem when they start dumbing down the existing classes to suit people. If people can't compete at that level, then they should drop down to a level they can compete at, but don't make the levels easier for them.

I don't like the fact that they took the stretchy circle out of the new CT Dressage tests and moved it to a higher level. Hello, it's not that difficult.

Adcooper- At the lower levels alot of people "get through" Dressage just so they can run XC, or that's what they say, but I think those people don't understand what real Dressage is about. I hated Dressage when I first started having to actually do true Dressage to get ready for shows. I just wanted to jump, but once I understood what Dressage was about, and how it worked, I started to really like Dressage. In fact, I wish our trainer focused more on Dressage than she does now.

I could go on about lengthening not being quickening, but if I got started now, we would be here all day. Let's just say that we have students doing registered shows at Novice (saying they are going training soon) that don't know the difference. It's scary. I just explained the diff to one girl the other day. She and her horse were getting it beautifully finally. (After she asked me to watch her trot work and tell her what I thought. I watched, then I told, then she asked me how to fix it :smirk: ...lol) Anyway, I see her riding yesterday and her "lengthening" was basically her horse running down the long side half trotting/half cantering and people were telling her it was beautiful. I almost puked. I had specifically told her that lengthening is not going faster. I'm so disappointed. The other day she and her horse were finally getting it, and he was really freeing up his shoulders and working for her. Now it's crap. Collected trot?? Is there supposed to be a difference from working trot? Evidently not, because I sure couldn't see one. It was slower than the "lengthening", but that was the only difference. The other day I had her able to collect her horse so much using herself and not trying to do it with the reins :bang: that he was almost doing piaffe. I said I wasn't going to start didn't I? Oh well, I'll stop now because I could go on and on and on.

[Christina]

Because I know nothing about dressage, I doubt I could have any type of intelligent conversation with you about the book - it just made sense to me. But now I want to go rent it again! If I remember correctly, she seems to hold the "Masters" in high regard, whomever they are, and each one of her horses looks PROUD to be working. They are completely relaxed, and just happy to be there. The thing that impressed me, was that she was using her schooling horses/students, for the book, and some of these horses are in their 30's, and look 20 years younger. The musculature and athleticism is amazing. I thought "I want to ride like that, so my horse looks like that when he's 30". She also shows her young, unschooled horses, and how they progress.
Just bought the Mary Wanless book that someone was talking about, to check that out, but also bought a Jaime Jackson and a John Lyons book, so I have a lot of reading to do, and havent looked at any of them yet. I spend WAY too much on books.