Weight woes

[welkin]

Posted this in COTH too, but thought I could tap into ER's collective knowledge too.

Chronicle Forums > Forum > Discussion Forums > Horse Care > Under weight horse, what am I doing wrong?
Welcome, NErider
You last visited: Feb. 12, 2013 at 10:03 PM
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So D was in great weight over the spring/summer/fall, then dropped a TON of weight late fall. He was living out 24/7 in a group of 6 gelding on a round bale, I fed grain 1x a day. We got some bad hay about the same time the weather turned cold, that's when he started dropping weight

I moved barns 5-6 weeks ago to full care (I provide feed though) to see if that would help. So far I swear he's lost more weight! What should I do??? Does he just need more time?

He's 9yr, 16h. Light to moderate work. Has a bit of a trace clip (just sides, last barn was heated) but is blanketed and inside over night.

Split into AM/PM this is what he's getting right now:
8-10 flakes of hay (moderate quality)
5.5lbs Purena SafeChoice Perform
1/2 cup Calf Manna (just been on it a week)
Ranitidine

I've been increasing his grain slowly, he was getting 2 lbs a day before I moved, we're up to the 5.5lbs now.

I'm going to buy some bags of alfalfa pellets, as I can't get access to alfalfa hay right now.

He gets turned out alone, from about 9am-6pm, i've started setting 2 flakes of hay out in his turnout for him with the BM's permission.

The only other thing is he's due for his teeth to be done in the spring, but he's eating well, no issues with his bit. Help please? I feel like such a failure of an owner!!

[Unbound]

How many pounds of hay is he getting (not just flakes as they can vary widely)?

It's hard once they lose to get it put back on - it takes time. I've been struggling with Diamond now for 6 months, but I think we're finally good. He gets 20-25 lbs of hay a day, plus 5 lbs of alfalfa cubes, 2 lbs of whole oats, a cup (think it equals out to about a half pound) of calf manna, and 1-2 cups of oil.

Rather than add more SafeChoice, can you add in some whole oats, perhaps? Maybe mix them in with his alfalfa cubes/pellets? I like to soak all of mine together to make them easier to chew and easier to digest.

It just takes time to see results, too.

[welkin]

I'm going to weigh the hay tonight, going to get a hay net and take my scale out, see what I can do! Its prob just going to take time, I just feel so bad I can see his ribs

[alisonph]

It's a drag when they're tough to keep weight on, especially if they worry it right off. Mine is a lanky 4 y.o. who has a new job, just came to me in september and is learning ALL sorts of big things out foxchasing. Sometimes I think his little brain gets overwhelmed and he begins to worry. He's working very hard right now and is very fit. He was thinner than I would like and just didn't seem to settle in and thrive. Things have turned a corner this past month.

Here's his diet:
30# decent quality 2nd cutting orchard grass offered(he only eats about 25#/day)
2# rabbit quality alfalfa
6# 11% fat 10% protein grain
2# (dry weight) beet pulp
2c. rolled flax
4 Tbsp kelpFree choice mineral salt
Soaked
That is split over 2-3 feedings, depending on my daily schedule. He was thin on this diet.
Teeth and power pak (use the Safeguard goat/sheep liquid) and he's putting on nice weight. Not rotund by any stretch of the imagination, but his BCS is probably a 3 out of 5. He has also grown an inch this winter, which I think is contributing to his thinness.

[Smay]

Yep, definitely weigh the hay because that is really the foundation of his diet and can make or break their weight gain. D should probably be getting at least 20-25 pounds of hay per day. More would be better if it's lower quality. My problem with my older TBs is muscle loss over their topline in the winter due to lack of work. They are both in good "weight" but have sagging, round bellies and kind of scrawny butts and withers. I just keep feeding them a lot and look for spring when they can get ( especially Ghost) a lot more exercise to tighten things up! You might look for hay cubes to supplement his hay if you can't get alfalfa hay locally. Also, a product that I've had excellent results from is Purina Amplify, a pelleted 30% fat supplement that you add to regular feed by the pound. Purina's Ultium feed and Strategy Healthy Edge feed also have Amplify added in for extra fat.

[jenarby]

I would give him as much hay as he can consume. The amount of grain seems pretty low to me as well. You could give him some probiotics too.
I put my hardest keeper on cool calories and in just about two weeks she is already putting weight on.
If you can manage it, give him a third feeding. Horses do better with smaller meals...more frequently.

[Pam]

I agree with those who say that hay is the foundation. My hay bales are straight timothy, GREAT quality and about 40-45 pounds each. Rubix (my hard-keeper TB) gets half a bale at night and two flakes in the morning, plus I put a full bale out in the paddock the 6 horses can pick at during the day. Bottom line, he gets about 25 pound a day.

That said, not every BO is going to be receptive to feeding 25 pounds of hay a day. If that's the case where you are, there are things you can do. Alfalfa pellets are a good option, but IMO, kind of a pita because you have to soak them.

If it were me, I would switch him from Safe Choice (which is made by Nutrena, not Purina, btw) to something like XTN, which Nutrena makes or Purina's Ultium. They both offer WAY more fat and so pack more calories into the same amount of feed. They ARE more expensive, but you might find yourself further ahead to feed one of these and drop the Calf Manna. I personally have never had good luck with it as a weight builder. I used to add it to the broodmare rations because it's very high (30%) in protein, but now I just use a specially formulated mare and foal ration. I like the KISS (keep it simple stupid) theory of feeding and use as few supplements as possible.

A couple that I do like are (as Jen already mentioned) Cool Calories which is 100% fat, very easy to use and most horses love it. Vege oil is another option that is cheap and easy, but in the winter it can be an issue if you don't either live where it stays warm or have a heated area to keep it in.

I used to work for an old-timer TB breeder and one day we were talking and I asked him why he chose to feed what he did (he fed oats and alfafa) vs some of the "latest and greatest" recommendations. His response was "If you ask 100 different people what to feed, you are going to get 100 different answers and 95 of them are going to be right. I feed what works for me." He was right and I never forgot it.

There are a TON of options out there that will work and if you listen to everyone (especially on COTH :, you will always think you are doing something wrong. Bottom line for a TB is hay as the foundation and enough calories in the concentrate to keep them in the condition that you want.

The key to safely getting enough calories into them is the fat content. Safe Choice Perform, while higher in fat than regular Safe Choice, is still only 9% vs 12.5 for XTN and Ultium . And despite Safe Choice being known as "low starch", the Perform version is not, Nutrena is just banking on the name recognition to sell it. Supplements such as oil and Cool Calories will add even more fat calories without overloading them on carbs. If you're wondering about adding oil, ALL vege oils provide 1920 calories per cup so whatever they will eat is fine.

[welkin]

Thanks guys! I weighed his hay last night, 3 flakes was 11lbs, so he is getting 25-30lbs a day, BUT, its not great hay.

I think he's been dehydrated as well, so I'm going to do soaked alfalfa pellets, track down Ultium (my last tb gelding reggae did great on it) and add oil as well.

[Pam]

Why would he be dehydrated? That's a big problem as it can lead to impaction colics. If he doesn't want to drink enough water, sometimes a salt lick will help or even some loose salt mixed in with his grain. If he's dehydrated because he's running out of water, then you need to bop the BO over the head with a hammer!

[Unbound]

Good luck! This chart might be helpful as well. I don't know the accuracy of it - I just found it once when I was googling to find the calories in various feeds.

www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/calories-per-pound-reference-chart-269159.html

[welkin]

For as long as I've had him he has ALWAYS done straight for his water after every work out, he doesn't here. He's also used to auto wateres, these are buckets, and I dump/clean them when I'm out, but they don't.

Just bought 5 bags of Ultium and 2 bags of alfalfa, holy ouch to the wallet lol, but I'm going to start switching him over to it tonight and by time we move back to the old barn he should be on all Ultium.

[welkin]

Ok, wow. Just spent some time researching how many calories a horse needs a day, plus calories in different feeds/hays and I have not been feeding him enough calories, bottom line. I'm a bad bad owner I can't believe I didn't do this research before! No wonder he lost weight, bad hay=less calories, cold=burn more calories and the grain I was giving him was not enough to cover the difference. Just made a feeding plan that should provide enough calories to put weight, I can't believe how much I've learned in the last few days!!!

[Unbound]

Don't feel bad - it's a common thing to have happen! You care enough to FIX it, and so that's what matters!!

You might look into feedxl.com/ as well. I know several COTH'ers use it. I've thought about doing it myself, but what I'm doing now is working okay...

[welkin]

I think I'm going to try a month!

[Big Tee©]

You start with 1-2% of body weight for forage amount, more in cold weather and if the caloric needs are still not met, add grain to the amount of no more than 5 pounds per feeding. Adding beet pulp may be a good idea as well, since it is neither forage nor grain but nearly the same caloric content as oats per pound.

How do you know the hay is bad? Was there an analysis done or are you just guessing? The reason I ask is this: I feed some hay in winter that many think is crap but it is super calorie dense and makes for ponies that get too fat and when I feed that hay, I do feed stuff that I know is lower in calories for added chew time. Quality of hay can't really be assessed by smell, feel or intuition - it needs to be tested. .

I wrote a base feeding guide a few years back and there is a link to it in the Main Librairy Forum.