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Post by Inga on Jun 8, 2009 19:22:49 GMT -5
As I am new to the idea of adopting a Thoroughbred off the track I am looking at different postings and saw several that say... "This horse has a flapper" or "This horse has a roaring problem but shouldn't affect any horse in any other discipline"
Can anyone confirm the seriousness of this? If one were to ride heavily in warm/hot weather would this be a problem? How heavy of riding would be too much for a horse with this issue? Should a horse with this be avoided? Any help is great. Thanks.
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Post by jenarby on Jun 8, 2009 22:58:03 GMT -5
Hi Inga, First, I'm going to move this thread to the Horse Health section as I think you'll get more answers to your question there.  Second, a "paralyzed flapper" is actually "laryngeal hemiplegia" or roaring. What happens is the cartiladge in the horse's larnyx gets pulled into the airway and partially blocks the intake of air. It makes a noise when the horse breathes in. The other thing that can happen is when a horse "flips the palate." I pulled this explanation from TTimes for you: "The soft palate is the tissue at the back of the roof of the mouth that separates the entrance of the esophagus from the entrance to the windpipe. Normally, it forms a tight seal that allows air into the windpipe and food into the esophagus, but not vice versa. During a race, certain horses break this seal and begin to breathe through the mouth and nose at the same time. The soft palate begins to flap, just as it does in humans that snore, and the flapping of this loose, soft tissue causes severe airway obstruction. A flipped palate causes a particular rapid, rattling noise when the horse exhales. "Most likely, this sound is generated by the vibrations of the dorsally displaced soft palate and modified by the nasal chambers," Derksen reported. A flipped palate is unique in that it is the only upper airway obstruction identified so far that produces a noise when the horse exhales. Other conditions produce noise when the horse inhales. " ------------------- Horses that roar pretty much always roar. There are surgies to help correct both problems but really, unless you plan on racing, don't bother. I have yet to see a horse with either problem have issues in other disciplines. Obviously the harder they breathe the more noise you will here. A horse that flips it's palate won't typically do it unless they are racing....because it's the speed of the breaths that cause the issue. If the horse swallows it corrects the problem too (you'd be surprised at how many horses learn that too). So if you plan on getting a horse to the upper levels of eventing....or doing point to point races or something of that nature, I wouldn't worry about it. I have, in the past run across horses who have had tie back surgery to correct palate flipping ot airway obstruction. Due to a poor job done both horses coughed a lot when they ate and feed came out of their noses. Unfortunately you wouldn't know they had the surgery unless the trainer told you. |
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Post by Einstein on Jun 9, 2009 0:27:15 GMT -5
Or you can scope the horse on a PPE and you'll know if he/she has had surgery.
Jen summed it up. I have evented to a high level a very loud roarer, with NO issues of wind on cross country, he was just really noisy. I also had a big, big, big time jumper who was a roarer and equally loud, no issues there either, although some roarers will have issues, the 2 I've ridden haven't.
I've NEVER had a horse flip other then on the track. Not once going cross country, but I have had it happen on the track. it usually feels like the horse is dragging me around (it only happened on 2 horses, both were wicked strong to gallop) and then they stopped pulling my arms out, and galloped nicely. When we pulled up (at the end of the work) I heard the noise, and it isn't pleasant. It sounds wet to me, really grossed me out. Both horses walked a bit and were fine, but I really disliked it. Both horses than went in a figure 8 nose band and never flipped working again. In my limited experience, flipping is something you can't miss, if it happens, you will know it, but like I wrote, I've never had it happen on any horse, other then working in the mornings on the track and even then it's rare.
I don't know about straight dressage, but the only discipline I can think that roaring will hurt your placings is the hunters, as it may be considered an unsoundness. maybe as an Eq horse too. But the jumpers and eventers are fine.
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Post by Smay on Jun 9, 2009 7:27:14 GMT -5
I bet our new horse Oatis has this syndrome to a small degree. Sunday we did a LONG, HOT hunter pace and he was making quite a bit of noise after exertion. I heard that bigger horses have it more often. My old STB Winny was 17 h and he roared too, but it didn't bother him in the least. Just sounds bad. Oatis just sounds "out of shape" with a heavy-sounding breathing, but it doesn't seem to bother him either.
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Post by picasso on Jun 9, 2009 8:05:07 GMT -5
My OTTB eventer Connor is a roarer. He does breathe a little loudly when trotting or cantering and galloping on XC, but it does not affect him in the least. I have taken him to events in 98+ degree weather and he cooled out quickly (faster then me ) and was perfectly fine. His roaring has also never hurt him in the dressage as we consistently get scores in the low 30s and 20s. I have seen Einstein's roarer go Preliminary XC before and to see him bounding around out there, you would never know he has a breathing issue  . |
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Post by hfhopper on Jun 9, 2009 11:30:53 GMT -5
My friend has an OTTB that roars. She shows straight dressage and it has never affected her scores. It seems that he is the loudest when he is tense. If he is going correctly and is relaxed, the breathing isn't nearly as loud.
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Post by Inga on Jun 9, 2009 19:29:49 GMT -5
Hm, this is very interesting. Thanks for all of the replies. Most of my experience is with Warmbloods and Saddlebreds. Roaring must be more common in Thoroughbreds. I have had horses that did the breath/puff, breath/puff thing but I guess we didn't call it roaring. A few of the horses I was interested in had that and it was said "no problem for any other discipline" but I thought it best to hear it from others that knew. Oh, and Thanks Jen for moving it. I guess I am not yet sure where everything goes. I will get the idea. |
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Post by lovethekeyz23 on Jun 14, 2009 19:35:37 GMT -5
Steel has this to the point that his voice is not normal. It is similar to how a woman's voice sounds that has smoked for many years, kind of throaty and low, if that makes sense. Anyway, the vet thinks he has had it since very young, and he successfully competed at second level dressage before I got him. I wouldn't worry about it. |
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Post by Inga on Jun 15, 2009 16:33:57 GMT -5
lovethekeyz23, Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for your input. Is it something that most commonly effects Thoroughbreds? I rode a lot of different horses and some did what I always called puffing or charging when they breath but it never affected them for competition.
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Post by allie on Jul 26, 2009 17:17:01 GMT -5
I'll be the lone dissenter here. I have a mare who flips while being ridden. She's having surgery in September as it's gotten so bad that she's unridable.
there are a LARGE number of horses who receive tie-back or laser surgery--my opinion is that it is around 30% of horses coming off of the track.
Roaring is graded on 1-4, and a level 1 roarer should have no issue performing normal sporthorse activities. The higher the number, the more debilitating. Surgery is pretty much mandatory for horses who rate 4 if they want any kind of sporthorse career.
My experience is showing that far more horses have breathing issues than people realize, however they tend to not make a noise oftentimes which makes it difficult to detect. Out-of character explosiveness is one of the main things I watch for in horses with breathing issues, which is what happened with my mare. She went from a DEAD quiet 4 year old to a head-flipping, temperamental BEAST to ride at 8. The descent to beast was progressive and slow, but I first heard that particular "flutter" on a spring trail ride at 5, and now it's bad enough that she does it running around the pasture.
Horses with tie-back often do not whinny with the same noise, and instead kind of whuffle, for lack of a better word.
Of course, this is all related to left hemiplagia. Right side is far more rare and if BOTH sides are affected, you essentially have a horse who cannot breathe and does need surgery in order to exist.
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Post by Inga on Jul 31, 2009 22:10:05 GMT -5
Good to know Allie. What percentage of surgeries are successful? How much does the average surgery cost? How serious is the surgery? I mean, is it relatively common or is it a real in depth surgery?
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Post by lovethekeyz23 on Jul 31, 2009 22:35:23 GMT -5
You know the vet at NB told me that there were signs that Steel had some previous surgery but did not elaborate. He does have one side paralyzed. His voice is very "muffled" if you will. In tie back surgery do they literally tie it back? Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I am wondering if it could possibly have come undone over time.
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Post by auburngrad1992 on Jan 9, 2014 21:53:46 GMT -5
I know this is an old thread, but someone is giving me some OTTBs tomorrow. One of them is supposed to have a flapper problem and I believe it has flipped before. I am considering him for a polocrosse horse. The game of polocrosse is high paced similar to regular polo. Each horse plays for 8 minutes straight at rapid start stop speeds. Then they take an 8 minute break, then another 8 minutes. They are only allowed to play a total of 16 minutes per day. It requires the horse to be physically fit the same as an eventer or any other sport horse. I am wondering if this sport will be too much like racing since they do sprint a lot or would it be different since the polocrosse field is only 160 yards long. How do i determine the level of the problem (1-4) as was posted previously?
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Post by Goalie on Jan 10, 2014 10:16:23 GMT -5
A good question and why don't you put this on the main horse board for more to see and hopefully someone can give you an answer. That is a very good-looking horse in your avatar.
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Post by auburngrad1992 on Jan 10, 2014 20:37:27 GMT -5
Thank you Goalie!
I am new to the website and I am not really sure how to move the thread. How do I do that?
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